Hi - newbie making 18W Liverpool

Express, Liverpool, Rocket, Dirty Little Monster, etc.

Moderators: pompeiisneaks, Colossal

Post Reply
loverocker
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:55 am
Location: England
Contact:

Hi - newbie making 18W Liverpool

Post by loverocker »

Hi guys - just thought I'd stop lurking and say "Hi" and thanks for providing a great resource :)

I'm about halfway through converting an old and trashed 2xEL84 WEM combo into an 18W Liverpool. I'm using Mark's hand-drawn schematic (thanks, Mark!), and making a layout on a 2-row ex-Ministry of Defence turretboard. It's a bit tricky to get everything in, but I'm just about sorted.

I'm sure I'll have other questions when I fire up and debug the amp, but for now my main question is whether you guys have any favourite values for the cap and resistor between the 2nd and 3rd stage? I'm planning to start with .0022uF and 68K. Thoughts?

When this amp is done, I'll put together a Website like the one I did for my plexified Marshall Artiste: http://www.firstmail.com/artiste/
markd
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:51 pm
Location: texas

Re: Hi - newbie making 18W Liverpool

Post by markd »

loverocker wrote: I'm sure I'll have other questions when I fire up and debug the amp, but for now my main question is whether you guys have any favourite values for the cap and resistor between the 2nd and 3rd stage? I'm planning to start with .0022uF and 68K. Thoughts?

As you know, the cap and resistor between the 2nd and 3rd stage have other functions besides the cap blocking the 2nd stages plate voltage off of the grid of the 3rd stage, and the resistor referencing the grid of the 3rd stage to ground. The resistor is also in parallel with the plate resistor of the 2nd stage when you calculate the gain of the 2nd stage. Normally that resistor is a 1meg, so it doesn't have much effect on the gain of the 2nd stage. But using a 56k to 68k resistor there will significantly affect the gain of the 2nd stage. And, I believe, that is why Mr Fisher used such a small value there. It is a way to lower the gain of this preamp without resorting to some tone sucking voltage dividers, etc.
That cap and resistor also form a high pass filter. When the resistor is a normal 1meg, this is no problem. The 3db down point is below the range of a guitar. But when you lower the resistor's value to 68k, the 3db down point will go much higher. Well into the range of a guitar depending upon the value of the cap.
Bottom line is you can't go too high on the value of that resistor or the preamp gain will be wrong. Once you get the preamp gain where you want it(by adjusting the resistor value), you can adjust the value of the cap for tone.
Sometimes builders will comment on how bright their Trainwreck clones sound. I wonder if it is excess brightness, or just a lack of low end from the effect of this high pass filter. Perhaps both?
There are people here more experienced with Trainwrecks than me, but my feeling is that these values will need to be determined by trial and error for each individual amp. The values you have chosen are certainly a good starting point. The preamp tubes, guitar, speakers, etc. you use will also play into this, so try and stick with the same ones at least until you find your first sweet spot.
loverocker
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:55 am
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Hi - newbie making 18W Liverpool

Post by loverocker »

Hey Mark - thanks for the info. I'm rather "theory-lite" :) so your explanation helps shed light on this part of the circuit. I'd never seen anything like it in other 'classic' schematics.

And you've persuaded me to rewire the turretboard a bit so these components will be a bit easier to change. I guess the best test-bed would be a couple of 4-way switches, but I've got no space on this chassis. :roll: I could maybe hook up a temporary pot to help find the sweet spot, though...
Mark
Posts: 3122
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:10 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Hi - newbie making 18W Liverpool

Post by Mark »

my main question is whether you guys have any favourite values for the cap and resistor between the 2nd and 3rd stage? I'm planning to start with .0022uF and 68K. Thoughts?
I would start with these two values and work you way from there.

0.0047uF cap and a 68K resistor.

To me the 68K resistor has the "right" amount of gain for this amp. I find that while 56K also works well, the insanity is lost.

Have a go and let us know how you get on with your project.
Yours Sincerely

Mark Abbott
loverocker
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:55 am
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Hi - newbie making 18W Liverpool

Post by loverocker »

Thanks Mark A. I've just now rounded up values from .001 to .022, so I should be all set for experimenting... once I get the amp up and running. :? This is the most complex circuit I've done yet, and I'm hoping the oscillation gremlins and SNAFU pixies stay away.
Chris G
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:27 pm
Location: rochester n.y.

Re: Hi - newbie making 18W Liverpool

Post by Chris G »

Mark wrote:
my main question is whether you guys have any favourite values for the cap and resistor between the 2nd and 3rd stage? I'm planning to start with .0022uF and 68K. Thoughts?
I would start with these two values and work you way from there.

0.0047uF cap and a 68K resistor.

To me the 68K resistor has the "right" amount of gain for this amp. I find that while 56K also works well, the insanity is lost.

Have a go and let us know how you get on with your project.
Mark is right on the money on this,used these values in my clone and it sounds pretty good :D
Thanks
Chris
Post Reply