Post on Les Paul forums Re: New Rockets built on KF's bench

[chimeboss]

Chimey, do you have anything at all to add to this forum? We all have enough people to screw with us in our personal lives. I don't think we need one more here....last warning!

With respect
Ive been called a fucking tool and have had a homophobic comment tossed my way as well on this forum and your talking personal?
I may be blunt and speak my mind but I dont go as low as some folks here do.

[Allynmey]

Chimeboss, I usually don't give a damn about the occasional swears or outbursts and haven't deleted much here. I don't like to censor posts either. This has nothing to do with name calling, teasing etc. It has to do with you coming to this forum to start fights with every post you make.

Ken is gone. No one asked you to be the family's flag bearer. They are doing exactly what you call people here out for....cloning amps. At least no one here has the balls to say they are real Trainwrecks made at Ken's bench under some crazy notion that just because the family finally decided to cash in on their brother/sons legacy, somehow they are sainted for it. Actually, I could care less about them doing it. More power to them. They, like us, can do whatever the hell they want.

This is a forum dedicated to amp building and discussion. It is based on the mutual interest we have in Trainwrecks and Dumbles. Other amps are discussed here too. Just because your one claim to fame is having a conversation with Ken Fisher, it doesn't give you the right to moderate the discussions here.

I will repeat unless you didn't hear it the first time. Ken is gone. There are a few people here on this forum that had long friendships with Ken. They don't feel the need to interrupt every discussion and attack people here. Learn that lesson.

[jaysg]

As to the man-crush on Ken- I think you all share that compulsion after all that's what drives this site.

Hogwash. It's obvious that KF suffered fools gladly.

[Structo]

Chimeboss, why are you here?

[chimeboss]

Chimeboss, I usually don't give a damn about the occasional swears or outbursts and haven't deleted much here. I don't like to censor posts either. This has nothing to do with name calling, teasing etc. It has to do with you coming to this forum to start fights with every post you make.

Ken is gone.

This is a forum dedicated to amp building and discussion. It is based on the mutual interest we have in Trainwrecks and Dumbles. Other amps are discussed here too. Just because your one claim to fame is having a conversation with Ken Fisher, it doesn't give you the right to moderate the discussions here.

It's Ken FISCHER
It's the devil in the details that drives your world right?
Bang!

[M Fowler]

Chimeboss,

You have to admit that Allyn does build some very nice amps and yes his attention to deal is to behold even when its 4 a.m. and tired.

Have you talked with the Fischers' about the new Rocket amp coming out?

Mark

[chimeboss]

Chimeboss, why are you here?

To make you think. Other viewpoints builds character.

Ethics perhaps?

[chimeboss]

Chimeboss,

You have to admit that Allyn does build some very nice amps and yes his attention to deal is to behold even when its 4 a.m. and tired.

Have you talked with the Fischers' about the new Rocket amp coming out?

Mark

No
And as I posted before I'm suspect about the venture. It doesnt follow Kenny's protocol.

[Allynmey]

No
And as I posted before I'm suspect about the venture. It doesnt follow Kenny's protocol.

Once again Chimey, I must appeal to your sanity. There is no more Ken. There is no more protocol.
If you must know the story about these amps without calling your good buddies the Fischers, here goes.

Apparently, Scott (Ken's Brother) is in business with the builder of these amps. The builder isn't using Ken's parts as was reported. He is also making his own mods as he goes along. He encourages people to compare them to Ken's own Rocket. One problem...these aren't Ken's amps, parts, build, or designs (completely). I do wish the guy luck though. $10,000 is $10,000. I don't think what he is doing is wrong...except when the family attaches Trainwreck logos on them and annoints them from beyond the grave.

Remember...no one can build an amp like Ken...except of course when the family wants to cash in.

I hope this frankness doesn't offend anyone here...this is getting old.

[DjunDjunMaster]

Hi folks,

My name is Josh. I'm quite fresh here, attracted by the clips and vids to search out more info on Trainwreck amps. I've seen the vids and been aware of the amps for a few years I think, and just recently have had the time and inkling to reinvestigate them. I'm a degreed musician, and have never built an amp or talked with anybody who has. I'm almost 35 and I live near Chicago. I don't know any of you folks other than to maybe have posted a public message to a thread of Glen's that he later addressed about his amp in this or the TGP forum.

I really like this board and the spirit of it, for the most part. But this thread has gone off course in a number of spots, hasn't it? I'm concerned enough to ask folks to consider a few things.

I think legally those who inherit things(be they material, intellectual property, or a brand name) can do what they like with it, and those who dare to speculate as to how anybody who is no longer with us would feel about that could be making a mistake. No one posting has claimed to be representing the entire story on behalf of the family. Perhaps their situations have changed and they need funds to survive. Who are any of us to judge what Ken might want for his family in light of a given unforeseen circumstance? I find it difficult to believe that any of us would catagorically appreciate people condemning our family's efforts to profit from our work should we die. Which leads me to another point.

On the one hand, some are quickly condemning the pricing of these new amps at $10,000. That is fine. If you don't like the price, don't buy them. The problem is when people also imply them to be bastardizations or frauds or imitations of the originals. You can't make both criticisms logically unless the price is in the same ballpark of what you (and I) would consider a true Trainwreck.

If the new operation were trying to pass off the new products as originals, why is the pricing of the amp then only about 25% of the selling price of originals? It's obviously because they're not trying to pass these amps off as being built by Ken. I'm not struck by any misrepresentation or fraudulent or devious behaviour on the part of those behind these new Trainwrecks from what I've read in this thread. You may not like that an amp will or has been built by somebody other than Ken that can and will legally be sold under the name Trainwreck. That's fine. But condemning it in the name of Ken strikes me as potentially troublesome.

Also, repeated statements have been made about how only Ken could build a Trainwreck. It's clear he said as much, and it's clear he expressed at one or more points a frustration that he was unable to instruct those around him in the nuances of his craft. Fine. That is different than endorsing the condemnation of proxies for his family after his death. Unless you've got access to Ken's last will and testament in which he clearly outlines that the Trainwreck name has to be destroyed upon his death, I ask if it's not possible that upon reflection some of this has gone too far.

Musicians can hear. Musicians have heard original Trainwreck amps, and have liked what they've heard. That is why they are sought after and emulated. The same musicians who's ears have heard and played and been pleased by original Trainwrecks should also be given the right to decide about these new amps. Nobody is claiming they are what many idolize; Ken-assembled, tested, tweaked, and approved amps. No investor or collector will be in any danger of being fooled into thinking they are truly getting a nearly $40,000 Rocket for a firesale price of $10,000.

These are my thoughts as a relative novice to this forum, to these amps, and to this issue. I hope I've not angered people for commenting on what is obviously a contentious and emotional issue for many.

[M Fowler]

DjunDjunMaster,

Oh I am quite sure you have offended some, get ready.

[FUCHSAUDIO]

The whole "nobody can do what I do" angle was (IMHO) to further strengthen the illusive nature of the product being discussed, but that's not the argument here. The point is that the family is basically sanctioning "authorized" clones, and cashing-in. This is as funny as the the Diaz site. Quotes from Cesar himself, plenty of hype and amp banter, and no mention could be found of his being dead !!

FWIW: Dumble had the same narrow minded mentality. He was overheard "whispering" on line at a Larry Carlton show "lots of people may know what I do, but don't know why and how I do it". All part of a now-eroded mystique.

There are plenty of darn good amps in the Wreck vein as there are in the D-style vein. None have the benefit of their inventors actually making them, and none that can be fairly compared to amps that will always have a 30 plus year break-in.

[paulster]

The whole "nobody can do what I do" angle was (IMHO) to further strengthen the illusive nature of the product being discussed, but that's not the argument here. The point is that the family is basically sanctioning "authorized" clones, and cashing-in. This is as funny as the the Diaz site. Quotes from Cesar himself, plenty of hype and amp banter, and no mention could be found of his being dead !!

FWIW: Dumble had the same narrow minded mentality. He was overheard "whispering" on line at a Larry Carlton show "lots of people may know what I do, but don't know why and how I do it". All part of a now-eroded mystique.

I can't help thinking that both of them were creating this illusion as a cheap method of protecting their intellectual property, since they had effectively eroded the market for clones before they began by using FUD.

It's only now with the passing of time and sufficient comparisons between clones and originals to show that they can, in fact, be built that's really opened up the market.

[dano-rator]

D D Master,
It's a fools errand to try and convince a community of amp builders and, yes, cloners that someone else's clone is worth the exorbitant price of 10 K.

Not even those with commercial interest are charging that rate for their product, and I believe no one here will agree that, family politics notwithstanding, Ken's relatives' sanction bears that kind of price tag!

It behooves the forum at large if everyone who believes otherwise starts saving their pennies and holding their tongues.

Dan

Ps, can you tell I'm sick of this topic?

[mclmk8d]

Allyn,
As the original poster, I am asking you to lock this thread. My original intent was to pass on what I thought was interesting information and not start a "family" squabble amongst the esteemed members of this community.
I believe this has gone on long enough, and there exists a sufficient amount of information that those who are interested in those amps can pursue it on their own. Thank you.
Serge