Best attenuator

[Reeltarded]

HE DIDNT ASK YOU!!

Here.. https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 18#p389718

[dorrisant]

I like RG's idea for a dummy load. That is good for sampling the signal to lower audio and/or to scope the signal with. Let's face it though, a purely resistive load doesn't sound as good as a reactive load.

BUT, put a 2mH 20AWG inductor in series with RG's resistor array and it sounds fantastic. I'm not sure what value of inductor is in a BadCat but I bet it is close to 2mH.

Btw - Miles, what would it take to get you to send one of your broken BadCats along with the Redplate we were discussing? I'd love to take a look at both. Also, I guess I'm not understanding "tremongous and non-compliant". Mine is 10"x6"x3" and sits nicely on top of an amp when needed. Am I missing something there?

My Ultimate did not come with an inductor in it, yes, buyer beware. I researched a ridiculous amount to arrive at what I found. I installed the inductor in mine and also connected a switch to jump across the inductor. Ultimate calls it a "Plexi" switch... I call it a wet blanket. Difference is huge. A side note... The Ultimate Attenuator has to be one of the worst looking assembled device I have seen in a long while, as far as devices in production. I could have done a better job with my feet!

No bones about it, I am actively working on a SS 200w unity gain amp to reproduce the signal coming off of a reactive load. That would be the cat's meow... you could throw all kinds of things into a box with this basic design to get the attenuator that you want.

https://www.parts-express.com/jantzen-a ... l--255-054

[MakerDP]

Not tried it with a 'wreck but I would definitely try VVR and/or PPIMV before an attenuator. MUCH cheaper and likely better results (IMHO.)

Someone else may have more direct Trainwreck experience with them though.

[norburybrook]

I've got a VVR on my rocket/Z-wreck and it's great for taking the edge of the volume if needed. I Put a PPIMV on the express I built and I wasn't that keen on that, again it's oK for taking the edge off. Volume and tone is a funny relationship. Many times VOLUME is tone, if you get my drift. Dynamic playing



Marcus

[Reeltarded]

I like RG's idea for a dummy load. That is good for sampling the signal to lower audio and/or to scope the signal with. Let's face it though, a purely resistive load doesn't sound as good as a reactive load.

BUT, put a 2mH 20AWG inductor in series with RG's resistor array and it sounds fantastic. I'm not sure what value of inductor is in a BadCat but I bet it is close to 2mH.

Btw - Miles, what would it take to get you to send one of your broken BadCats along with the Redplate we were discussing? I'd love to take a look at both. Also, I guess I'm not understanding "tremongous and non-compliant". Mine is 10"x6"x3" and sits nicely on top of an amp when needed. Am I missing something there?

My Ultimate did not come with an inductor in it, yes, buyer beware. I researched a ridiculous amount to arrive at what I found. I installed the inductor in mine and also connected a switch to jump across the inductor. Ultimate calls it a "Plexi" switch... I call it a wet blanket. Difference is huge. A side note... The Ultimate Attenuator has to be one of the worst looking assembled device I have seen in a long while, as far as devices in production. I could have done a better job with my feet!

No bones about it, I am actively working on a SS 200w unity gain amp to reproduce the signal coming off of a reactive load. That would be the cat's meow... you could throw all kinds of things into a box with this basic design to get the attenuator that you want.

https://www.parts-express.com/jantzen-a ... l--255-054

Yeah, I am ok with hearing resistive load sounding as a DI clipping a class A mic amp, same as dumping a line input right off the output into the loop in on the same console. Sounds like screaming bees or the solo on Tangerine without an 1176 and some spacial treatment. A bow with fresh rosin across aluminum sheet.. ehhhhssh A fuzzface driving a fuzzface. A PoopLoop.

Ploop!

I used Harry Kolbe umm.. Silent Speakers for a couple tours and had to use parametrics to put a fairly ridiculous amount of cut on the top with a steep roll off the bottom too. like bash off at 18db below 80 and a 6db slope from just over 2k. Those rigs only used loads to feed racks and the amps drove other cabs as well.

Stand alone things make my gear angry because 90% of my heads stack up, the cabinets stack.. I can stack guitar cases.. but anything not built to standard rack dimensions (even if a space too tall) gets stared at until it catches fire. (satan stares at Bad Cats... I'm looking at you!)

It's the only thing I do not like about my Liverpuddle. Marahall Marshall Bandmaster.. Liverpuddle.. you idiot.

Yeah, ok. I will get a box today and pack a pile of junk to ship next week. Also a shape format I could live without. If a Redplate was any smaller it would become infinitely dense. Redplate:Black Hole

If Dave pops in, everyone tell him purely resistive loads are absolutely the way to go and then let's check his blood pressure. He is too busy developing a death magnet to be an amp slacker..

Oh, and those Marshall Power Brakes are good, they are GREAT.. but like any simple attenuator you can only use two clicks because you still need enough volume for the guitar to hear the amp for an amp to work.

[Reeltarded]

I've got a VVR on my rocket/Z-wreck and it's great for taking the edge of the volume if needed. I Put a PPIMV on the express I built and I wasn't that keen on that, again it's oK for taking the edge off. Volume and tone is a funny relationship. Many times VOLUME is tone, if you get my drift. Dynamic playing



Marcus

^^^^ exactly all that.. the guitar has to hear the amp. Hard and heavy guitars need lots of volume, soft and light ones need much less.

The Express sounds like shit with a PPIMV because the NFB is a thang in that amp. It sounds like a bee with the master any lower than like 8.

OH. I forgot the last most perfect attenuator:

A VARIAC is THE BEST attenuator. The pilot light goes out and you still have about 20vac before the sound stops coming out.

[Colossal]

If Dave pops in, everyone tell him purely resistive loads are absolutely the way to go and then let's check his blood pressure. He is too busy developing a death magnet to be an amp slacker.

Oh, and those Marshall Power Brakes are good, they are GREAT.. but like any simple attenuator you can only use two clicks because you still need enough volume for the guitar to hear the amp for an amp to work.

I think it's whatever floats yer boat and tricks your ear, and the choice of load depends a lot on your mission. Are you just needing to knock off some dB? Reamping? Silent recording but want the feel? Both? I designed a reactive load that will emulate pretty much any speaker by tuning the inductors. Reactive loads let an amp work into something that give you the feel. It's not speaker simulation. It's about the amp reacting under your fingers the way it does when you are a playing a speaker cabinet. The point is frequency dependent resistance (impedance). The Power Brake is a variable/tapped inductive load. Each click takes you to the next rung on an inductive ladder.

A 20mH inductor in series a small resistive load, like what's in the Palmer et al, will roll off 2kHz and above.

FWIW, I have been toying with the voicing of an 18W Lite combo. They are very simple amps with just a single gain stage into a LTPI so small tweaks can be quite audible. My point in mentioning it, is that you can get a little more apparent low end at very low volumes with a high plate arrangement, probably due to the generation of low frequency harmonics, so I've found that can be a subtle way of helping to trick the ear into thinking there is little more beef at lower volumes without attenuation. This is in conjunction with a PPIMV (no NFB of course).

[Reeltarded]

But I can feel my strings.. (unsure)

Do not freak out. I'm kidding. I can't feel a thing.

[MakerDP]

I've got a VVR on my rocket/Z-wreck and it's great for taking the edge of the volume if needed. I Put a PPIMV on the express I built and I wasn't that keen on that, again it's oK for taking the edge off. Volume and tone is a funny relationship. Many times VOLUME is tone, if you get my drift. Dynamic playing



Marcus

^^^^ exactly all that.. the guitar has to hear the amp. Hard and heavy guitars need lots of volume, soft and light ones need much less.

The Express sounds like shit with a PPIMV because the NFB is a thang in that amp. It sounds like a bee with the master any lower than like 8.

OH. I forgot the last most perfect attenuator:

A VARIAC is THE BEST attenuator. The pilot light goes out and you still have about 20vac before the sound stops coming out.

I'm confused. Please explain how using a variac is better than a VVR... they accomplish the same task except the VVR doesn't starve your heater voltages.

And "Volume is tone" is really more about psycho-acoustics (our brain is wired to think "louder is better" and the physics of speaker cones distorting and moving volumes of air, etc) don't you think? "The guitar has to hear the amp?" What does that mean? Are you talking about some sort of feedback loop that happens when the amp is louder contributing to the tone?

[MakerDP]

I think it's whatever floats yer boat and tricks your ear, and the choice of load depends a lot on your mission. Are you just needing to knock off some dB? Reamping? Silent recording but want the feel? Both? I designed a reactive load that will emulate pretty much any speaker by tuning the inductors. Reactive loads let an amp work into something that give you the feel. It's not speaker simulation. It's about the amp reacting under your fingers the way it does when you are a playing a speaker cabinet. The point is frequency dependent resistance (impedance). The Power Brake is a variable/tapped inductive load. Each click takes you to the next rung on an inductive ladder.

A 20mH inductor in series a small resistive load, like what's in the Palmer et al, will roll off 2kHz and above.

FWIW, I have been toying with the voicing of an 18W Lite combo. They are very simple amps with just a single gain stage into a LTPI so small tweaks can be quite audible. My point in mentioning it, is that you can get a little more apparent low end at very low volumes with a high plate arrangement, probably due to the generation of low frequency harmonics, so I've found that can be a subtle way of helping to trick the ear into thinking there is little more beef at lower volumes without attenuation. This is in conjunction with a PPIMV (no NFB of course).

I am a HUGE fan of reactive loads for recording. I use the SUHR and one of these days I need to figure out how to do my own because I want one that will emulate my 1x12 with an ET65, not a 4x12 with Greenbacks. I'd be interested to see your designs if you've made them public (but in another thread - this one is starting to get derailed.)

Adding some beef at lower volumes... I know this is heresy in some circles, but proper use of an EQ pedal can work wonders to fix these kind of issues too. And, (again, slightly OT - sorry) have you tried 12AY7's in both posistions in your Lite? I really like that combo and a Y-preamp/T-LPTI is a nice combo as well. I'll have to experiment with the high-plate idea.

[Reeltarded]

Variac is cheap and my amps are probably plugged into them right now.

It just sounds great. I set them to normal to heat them up and turn it down so low you can whisper over it. I do it with Fender and Marshall stuff all the time. Depending on what amp, the sound quits between 35-45v maybe?

VVRs would wreck my amps. I just plug any old thing into a variac. I also use the variacs on amps to keep them from hitting the Palmer loads too hard. I like the sound better of a Marshall 50 at around 65vac and 100s around 75ish. Fenders don't care until you get to the bottom. The last few volts sound a little fitzy.

I have a couple Marshalls from the ancient times with the original output tubes still kicking ass.


About volume: The guitar needs to be moved by the amp. The issue oeople experience with simple attenuators is that more than two clicks of kill decouples the acoustics of the guitar. This is why you commonly hear "This attenuator sucks!" and "Those attenuators are awful". It's the expectation that the sound comes purely from the driven amp. It does not.

[norburybrook]

DP,

My comment about Volume being tone;

I'll try explain what I mean by this. A 'louder' more powerful amp will generally hold together better than a smaller, low powered amp, so if you're playing a club date with say a 50w amp and you have the amp turned up so it's in the sweet spot for lead solo's say, then roll back your volume to sit in the band when playing rhythm, when you come to solo which is generally single line stuff you will have a 'bigger' sounding tone than if you were pushing a small amp hard as small amps tend to fart out at high volume. so in this scenario Volume for me, would equate to 'good' tone. Perhaps, in my case I use the word volume meaning also 'Power'. It's all connected and that's what's so interesting about the whole 'tone' thing. You can't take one thing out of the equation...it's 'holistic'....Gtr-(pedals)amp-Speaker.

Tone is indeed in the head of the player so obviously that might not be what other people perceive as 'better'.

I don't know if I've explained that well but hope you get my drift.


M

[Reeltarded]

Yeah, little amps.. umm.. anything smaller than an AC30 is a toy to me for those reasons. Smaller amps interact with the pickups but not the guitars.

[Reeltarded]

lol

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[pompeiisneaks]

lol

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you've officially found the most potato picture on teh intarwebz

~Phil