Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

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Cliff Schecht
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Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

Post by Cliff Schecht »

This is my first post so I should probably introduce myself a little first. I'm a senior electrical engineering student and work for PAiA (hence the large banner ;)). I learned of this forum after googling around for info about some of the different output transformers that I have including two A-3801's, which is what actually led me here. I decided to sign up for the forums after being impressed with the wealth of information about Trainwreck's as well as the friendly atmosphere.

I've only been actually building tube amps for about 6 months now but finding a large stock of great Stancor and other transformers, chokes, cases and a few power transformers has made this an affordable and surprisingly relaxing hobby.

My first two builds were of my own design, a 2x6AU6/807 SE 20W amplifier and a 6AV6/2x6AK6 (in parallel) SE 2W amp. The 6AK6 amplifier also uses a 130-250V boost SMPS that I designed for use on mini/submini amplifiers (plans coming soon!). Both of these amps have their ups and downs and have been great learning experiences. But I've quickly found that the 807 SE amplifiers just can't hold up in a jam session against a drummer, bass player, PA, etc.. Even with 16-18W from the 807 through 4x12 cab, the only time I can really fit in with the mix is to put on some distortion.

The decision to actually build a Trainwreck (specifically an Express) was dictated by the output transformer (this is what dictated my last two builds as well funny enough). Finding a set of beautiful (and heavy!) Stancor A3801's was pretty much all of the "encouragement" I needed. The chassis and most of the parts I had on hand so this turned out to be quite an affordable build. I ended up spending $45 shipped for an 2T300 transformer (w/ 12.6V and 6.3V taps) and about $35 on a set of JJ El34's and some 8 and 9 pin sockets. The preamp tubes came out of my large box of new and used tubes that a teacher gave me a while back (somewhere around 500 tubes..). They were all GE brand 12AX7's that tested good or great on the tube tester.

So for the actual build, I decided after a bit of reading to build the A1a version of the Trainwreck as seen in the Blue Guitar pdf file. I figured that if anything, this would be a good springboard for a more personalized version of a Trainwreck. The fact that the Express is known for a wide range of great tones with just the volume and tone knobs was very attractive and seemed like a great fit for my style of playing.

The chassis I used was fairly unconventional for a guitar tube amp build (measures 12" long x 7" wide x 3" deep) but ended up getting used because it was free, was made of good quality aluminum and fit the transformers/tubes decently. I probably would have went with something larger if I wasn't used a toroidal power transformer but the low leakage made power transformer hum of low concern. The case did already have a bunch of holes in it because it was a recycled student project (I don't know what it was before) but I spent a bit of time planning out the layout in such a way that I could use most of the holes drilled in the case for something or another.

Building the amp took about three days, one for drilling the case and two for actually stuffing the chassis. The thing that I wish I spent more time on was planning out the layout and insides because the point-to-point wiring scheme that I used ended up getting pretty cramped towards the edge of the case. Also I was very lazy with the lead dress of this amp and it showed quickly when it came time to test the finished product. After eliminating a nasty motorboating problem associated with poor bypassing, I found that the amp oscillated uncontrollably and eventually the tube plates would start slightly red with the bias control "maxed" (i.e. grids most negative). The DMM showed that with the values posted in the A1a schematic, a bias voltage of only -12.5V was achievable. This was unacceptably low by a large margin and so after some napkin math, I ended up replacing the 220k resistor on the negative bias stage with a 68k resistor. This allowed for about -29.5V of bias on the tube grids, close enough for now.

So after fixing that little error (I think others ran into the same issue), the amp would turn on and idle decently, but an audible whine could be heard that could be changed by moving tonestack pots. I thought the issue was a grounding one, so I went about changing the amplifier from the chassis grounding scheme I originally (and skeptically) used to a star grounding scheme. This reduced a bit of hum in the amplifier but I was still having a nasty oscillation problem. The next step was to improve some of the wiring of the amplifier but alas, no great results here.

After the last two attempts failed, I spent a bit of time reading before stumbling across Gerald Weber's book and reading his great section on taming unstable amplifiers. The first thing that started showing some promising results was moving the shield of the V1a tube from the input ground to the 100k plate resistor. This killed allof the oscillations and noise in the first stage (I was using an oscope and tube test socket at this point) but couldn't eliminate the oscillations with all of the tubes plugged in. So I spent a bit more time cleaning up the wire routes and added grid stoppers to the first three preamp triodes. This helped to tame the oscillations but at the extremes of the treble, mid and presence controls I was still hitting oscillations.

At this point I'm getting close to ready to give up, but not before trying the "last resort" tricks that I was hoping I didn't have to do. The last changes I made were to move the presence control away from the other tone/volume controls and to add some negative feedback to the second and third stages of the preamp. The presence control was moved to the side of the case near the bias control which cleaned up routing in that area considerably. Then I added a plate-to-grid capacitor to the second stage and a plate shunt capacitor to the third stage. I was careful to choose a cutoff frequency well above what a guitar amp would actually deal with but low enough to swamp out those nasty oscillations. After these last tweaks, this amp CAME ALIVE :twisted:.

The sound was exactly as described, extremely dynamic and very responsive to player touch. It goes from spanky clean to an almost singing distortion with just the twist of the volume knob. I've read some complaints from people about Trainwreck clones being overly bright but this was not a problem with my build through both a 200W monster 12" speaker and a super duper vintage 40's 12" speaker/enclosure that I picked up for $30 in Lockhart. With a humbucker equipped Ibanez, the sound went from punchy and clean to full on rock distortion that would make Hendrix jealous. I've never played a more dynamic amp, nothing responds to playing touch like this thing does. The sound with my 52 Tele reissue was exactly what one would expect, a bright yet sweet sounding clean sound. But the distortion with the tele just blew me out of the water, I've never heard this guitar sound hotter! I can't wait to play this amp at a jam session and onstage, I think it will have people turning their heads and covering their ears :lol:.

It's getting late and this post has already gone on way too long so I will wait until tomorrow to post pictures. This is probably the ugliest Trainwreck build you guys will ever see but I will still stand by it as a solid build that cost me very little in the way of money (but a lot in headaches this holiday!).
Cliff Schecht - Circuit P.I.
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M Fowler
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Re: Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

Post by M Fowler »

Speaking of PAIA many years ago I bought 15 of those 4739? IC to build all of Craig Anderton's guitar projects but never use them.

Welcome to Ampgarage.
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KellyBass
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Re: Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

Post by KellyBass »

Welcome to the discussion! Sounds like your build came out very well!

When you say "my 52' tele reissue sounds just like you would expect" (or something like that), I know exactly what you mean...and that is truly what amazes me most about these amps. The individual characteristics they bring out of each guitar is incredible and inspiring.

Have fun and be safe!
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guitardude57
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Re: Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

Post by guitardude57 »

Which value of plate to grid caps did you use? I have some oscillation at extreme treble and presence range myself.
Mike


I am never surprised and always amazed
Cliff Schecht
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Re: Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

Post by Cliff Schecht »

Thanks for the welcome guys!

M Fowler: Anderton's guitar projects are still showing up to this day in many forms, including the Red Llama fuzz pedal (based off of the Tube Sound Fuzz we sell now) and others in that book. All cool effect but definitely not necessary with a Trainwreck ;).

Guitardude:
On the first stage, I killed all of my problems by using shielded cable. The shield is connected to the plate as seen in the A1a schematic. One has to be careful doing this though because if the plate somehow shorts to the grid, you have 150V going to your guitar! The trick to doing this properly is to solder a wire to the shield and heatshrinking the shield so that it has no chance of shorting. This is a common trick in commercial products and is IMO the only "safe" way to do this. While I wasn't having oscillation problems in the first stage, I was having hum problems that went away after doing this. When you think about it though, all you are doing is adding a small amount of capacitance (think picofarads) between the plate and grid which is nearly the same thing as just adding a small amount of capacitance between the plate and grid.

On the second stage, I actually whipped out the calculator and found the equivalent resistance of the plate resistor in parallel with the 12AX7 plate resistance and the resistance of the next stage which gave me about 25k of resistance total. I then found that a 560pF gave a cutoff frequency of about 11kHz which is higher in frequency than what we deal with on guitar but is enough to swamp out those nasty parasitics.

The third stage ended up being more of trial and error thing as I found that the plate-to-grid capacitor trick actually messed with the sound of the amp without eliminating my problems. So instead I shortened the capacitor leads that attached stage 2 to stage 3 and used a shielded cable to connect the stage three side of the coupling cap to the grid and connected the shield to ground near V3. This killed some noise but stage three was still able to oscillate, so I placed a 200 pF capacitor across the stage 3 100k plate resistor. I found this value to work perfectly, and all of my problems went away after this last change.

Be warned though, as the pictures I post will show I did not follow any layout (mistakingly!) and so these fixes were necessary for MY build but may not fix yours. I would try just the capacitors either across the plate resistor or from the plate to grid, and make sure to use good quality Mica or similar quality caps. I don't like the idea of guessing and checking either, it's best to actually whip out the calculator and do some simple math if you know how. Otherwise you can waste hours swapping out caps and testing them in circuit which is not only tedious but is hard on your tubes as well.

Your amp build may require less capacitance than mine did so start small and work your way up until the oscillations quit. Definitely start with those first two stages before you start messing with the later, less susceptible stages. An oscilloscope also helps you to nail down exactly where your problems are occurring and can show you if your amplifier is oscillating above human hearing (which isn't always so obvious!).

Also worth mentioning is I found the grid stoppers I installed to kill some of the dynamics of the Express. I'm pretty sure I read here that Ken didn't like grid stoppers for this very reason, he felt they reduced the touch responsiveness of his amps.

Hope all of this helps!
Cliff Schecht - Circuit P.I.
Cliff Schecht
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Re: Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

Post by Cliff Schecht »

Some pictures. I still need to add some sort of strain relief to the power transformer where the wires come through the chassis and a secure a few things down..

Front:
[img:600:450]http://imgur.com/0koSMl.jpg[/img]
Big picture link: http://imgur.com/0koSM.jpg

Back:
[img:600:450]http://imgur.com/LzTQfl.jpg[/img]
Big picture link: http://imgur.com/LzTQfl.jpg

Insides (YIKES!):
[img:600:450]http://imgur.com/km5Fcl.jpg[/img]
Big picture link: http://imgur.com/km5Fc.jpg
Cliff Schecht - Circuit P.I.
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KellyBass
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Re: Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

Post by KellyBass »

Wow! Definitely a different take on the conventional layout!...But I like it!
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bcmatt
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Re: Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

Post by bcmatt »

wow! Very impressive.
It takes a lot guts and gaul to attempt an express PTP in such a small chassis. You have really earned my respect. I would not have the talent or patience to work it through all the issues.
That is something to be proud of.
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gearhead
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Re: Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

Post by gearhead »

bcmatt wrote:wow! Very impressive.
It takes a lot guts and gaul to attempt an express PTP in such a small chassis. You have really earned my respect. I would not have the talent or patience to work it through all the issues.
That is something to be proud of.
]

Likewise! Bet you're the kind that doesn't read manuals either, eh? LOL.

Seriously, big kudos.
mumford
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Re: Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

Post by mumford »

Cool! It's great to see omeone trying something different that actual works. :lol:
Zippy
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Re: Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

Post by Zippy »

Welcome, Cliff.

Congrats on getting that to work at all. I'd be disappointed to see that kind of work from a EE senior. Sorry.

Making bandaid discoveries is cute but even more impressive is taking the time to plan a layout and making a clean product.

Welcome to AmpGarage tho'. Take more time to look around and you'll learn that paying attention to detail rules over bandaids - especially with the Express.

Your approach is exactly what gained Fender a reputation for sucking the tone out of their classic Blackface amps. Please learn from history.
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Allynmey
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Re: Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

Post by Allynmey »

That's definitely old school!

Welcome to the forum! :D
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gearhead
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Re: Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

Post by gearhead »

Zippy wrote:Welcome, Cliff.

Congrats on getting that to work at all. I'd be disappointed to see that kind of work from a EE senior. Sorry.

Making bandaid discoveries is cute but even more impressive is taking the time to plan a layout and making a clean product.

.... Please learn from history.
I most humbly disagree. They don't teach SQUAT on fabrication in the academic EE world, unless you actively puruse it. Been there, done that, have the Tshirt (and sheepskin).

He also made this out of parts on hand, and the chassis dictated a lot of the layout. The fact that he got it to work is pretty cool in my book.

Having said that, most certainly, READ a lot of what's here. There are a number of lessons that some folks here had to learn the hard way. The Trainwreck layout is, in certain locations, a crucial factor. Also, the signal path is minimal on purpose. All the bandaids and fixes shouldn't be needed; in most cases they stifle the free-wheeling, wild-eyed thoroughbred horse-nature of the Express.

Really recommend using the schemos in the files section here (vice blueguitar).
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M Fowler
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Re: Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

Post by M Fowler »

I didn't learn anything in my EEE either.

I love PTP amps and to tame a PTP Express is quite an accomplishment sir. 8)

Mark
Cliff Schecht
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Re: Terra: A Trainwreck Express build with Stancor A-3801

Post by Cliff Schecht »

Zippy wrote:Welcome, Cliff.

Congrats on getting that to work at all. I'd be disappointed to see that kind of work from a EE senior. Sorry.

Making bandaid discoveries is cute but even more impressive is taking the time to plan a layout and making a clean product.

Welcome to AmpGarage tho'. Take more time to look around and you'll learn that paying attention to detail rules over bandaids - especially with the Express.

Your approach is exactly what gained Fender a reputation for sucking the tone out of their classic Blackface amps. Please learn from history.
You're not hurting my feelings here, I agree that my method for building this amp was quite amateurish and lazy. I really wish I would have known about the Express's instability issues before I started building or I would have planned it out much more carefully. This amp build does not reflect my professional work other than that it works as it should. But I agree that my lack of thorough reading BEFORE building this amp caused me many more problems than I should have encountered.

I must say though that I did carefully choose the bandaids that I used to tame the amplifier without taking away the natural brilliance (i.e. brightness) of the design. I see why people like 40 foot runs of guitar cable through this amp, it sure can get very bright.

But I must disagree as well about EE schools teaching students anything about fabrication and good layout techniques. I actually run a tutorial every semester at school both on how to solder and how to properly layout a board but most schools don't even offer something like this. I know how to layout a board properly, be it an RF board, an SMPS, a microcontroller board or whatever. But when it comes to tube amps, I have a bad habit (which I WILL get away from!) of treating the inside construction like a perfboard where you can build the board right off of the schematic without much prior planning. This Express build has been a wakeup call with respect to layout and all I can do now is learn my lesson and enjoy the fruits of my labor.

I unfortunately do work and go to school though so my building time is quite limited sometimes. Of course that's no excuse for sloppy layout but to be honest, this build was more of a prototype than a final product. Either way, the Express really is quite a beast and I'm glad I was given the opportunity to build something so, well, perfect. The mystique surrounding Ken Fischer is also quite interesting and I love how passionate he was about his craft. If anything, Ken is a hero to me in that he made a seemingly decent living doing something that he loved, which is where I hope to be someday.

Thanks for the kind words guys, I've seen what some of the others around here have built and have nothing but respect for how nice the builds look and sound. The wealth of accurate information you guys provide to builders like myself is something that really attracted me here.

I hope to post soundclips in the near future but only if I can find the time before next semester starts (or if this amp makes it into the studio).

Also, a quick question. What is the purpose of the six diodes (D1-D6) in the ampgarage version of the TW Express schematic? I couldn't see any of those diodes actually turning on unless the plates actually somehow managed to drop three diode drops above ground. I guess I haven't really looked at the power stage on a scope yet but does the plate ever actually swing below the cathode on these amps? I assume the diodes are in there for protection (this is the default EE student answer ;)) but is there something else that I'm not considering?
Cliff Schecht - Circuit P.I.
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