Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Express, Liverpool, Rocket, Dirty Little Monster, etc.

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rooster
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Re: Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Post by rooster »

OK, I have run into threads like this here before and it always goes a little sideways IMO. Not because there's no interest in the subject, but because everyone feels like they have a leg up on the right speaker choice. OK, I get this.

But what if we go a different way? What if we talk about some basic speaker quality requirements for high gain amp speakers? Um, yeah that's the speakers in TW amps of course.

OK, for starters, since so many negative things are said about some speakers regarding brightness or edginess, let's address this. Do all of you here know the difference between a 'bright' speaker vs. a speaker with 'cone cry'? Do all of you here know what cone cry is? I don't know why this is such a mysterious topic, and yes, cone cry is a real thing and it can wreck an amp's tone, in particular, the tone of a high gain amp.

So let me offer an accurate description of 'cone cry', a description you cannot find so plainly in a Google search. But don't believe me, google it. Besides a lot of questions, you will find maybe Weber's definition the best, but he still doesn't offer much. He defines it but not in words most people can relate to. So let me try. Cone cry, first off, is sonically generated on the backside of the cone near the last 1/2" of cone surface near the surround. (It also happens at the front side of the speaker, but this is overpowered and masked by the intended sound coming from the speaker front - which is also to say that cone cry is more apparent in open back cabs.) This happens, cone cry, because the cone, when driven hard, is sometimes not only moving in and out, as in front to back, but also slightly sideways at the edge. In other words, as the speaker cone extends to its limits and beyond, the limits dictated by the surround in this case, the voice coil is still moving forward. Since it can't move any further, the cone starts to move slightly outward at it's edge (distorting the surround and the cone edge in the process) and then inward as it recoils to its normal shape/dimension. All of this causes a very small and very quick ripple in the cone edge (where the cone is at its greatest diameter and also closest to the surround that is stopping its movement). All of this creates an added sound that has nothing to do with the sound sent to the speaker. This is cone cry. (It may not be the best example but I tend to visualize this process much like someone tapping/playing a musical saw. When the saw is struck, there's a note, and as the player bends the saw blade quickly the note/pitch would go up, but for a brief moment you might hear the original pitch and the rising note/pitch as well. Eh, like I said, maybe not a great example in this case but it comes to mind for some reason.)

You can maybe go crazy as you think about all the ways to stop the cone cry. A first thought might be to build a speaker that could only move the cone so far, and not let it go any further. You could also make the cone from very rigid material. But typically all of these types of ideas, even if you could produce a speaker that incorporated them, would produce some pretty boring speakers. ..So instead there is doping.

There's a reason why doping extends beyond the surround and into the cone edge area. This is intended to dampen the edge and stop the cry. But it can and sometimes is also applied to the back of the cone. Weber applies something that looks and feels like contact cement (it dries) to the back of some of their seamed Chicago style speakers, for example. Here the entire cone is sprayed, btw. Not the 10s, but the 12" versions, and 15s I wouldn't know about but it's likely. They have also, on occasion, added a small 'glob' of what looked like black 'goo' to the back of a cone in a key spot under a frame brace. Having at one time receiving a speaker that had been reconed from Weber with this treatment on it, I remember I talked to Ted senior about this via email and he said it was not something he talked about but was intended to stop cone cry. It works, and in some cases, it's worth try if you have an undoped speaker that seems to be working overall but has cone cry at higher volumes. (Of course I wouldn't recommend it on vintage Jensens if you are trying to preserve vintage specs.)

Alright, I really wrote this in hopes of someone finding a proper speaker for a TW amp and maybe to help them understand why a particular speaker is not working. Sorry to drone on.
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Re: Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Post by Scumback Speakers »

Here's an example of cone cry in both the lower frequencies and higher ones.

http://www.scumbackspeakers.com/pmq/bfcc.mp4

I use a waveform generator hooked up to an old Randall RG-80 solid state combo amp driving the speaker at about 1-2w. The volume setting is less than 1/4th of 1 on the clean channel.

At :03 you can hear an audible low double tone like a kazoo is playing along with the fundamental note just out of octave pitch. Then it goes away until :11, then starts again through :15. The higher pitched double note is also cone cry where it starts to sound like two notes.

Around :22 it comes in again through :26 on the low notes.

This speaker doesn't have voice coil rub. It's not being sent too much power. It's just not built right.

The frequencies vary but basically this speaker will howl like a werewolf from your low E to your D string, then again from the 9th fret on your G string up to the 17th fret on the high E when actually mounted in a cab and played. There's no distortion or high gain involved in this test.

Doping extends a paper cone's life by dampening it so it doesn't vibrate as wildly and cause cracks/tears in the cone paper. Doping can dampen cone cry some, but it won't kill it entirely. Every speaker has it resonant frequency you can find that will produce cone cry. The goal is to build a speaker that doesn't have cone cry within the guitar players usable range.

I hope this helps with roosters post.
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Re: Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Post by rooster »

Jim, I don't think this is a good or even valid example of a speaker exhibiting cone cry. This is just a poorly built speaker. To my ear all of that noise is coming from the surround, as in, if there is not a tear in the fold somewhere then a part of the surround is not glued down.

Cone cry from my experience and most people's you can read about, have nothing to do with the low E string. The point being that the frequencies from 180hz to 300hz are not in the picture because the cone is moving too slow to generate cry. And you can read out there in cyberland that, as in my case, it is generally when the player gets above the 12th fret that he notices something odd. After that he might notice that it can happen on the D string. But typically not the E or A string. By the way, if anyone is wondering what it is that you notice using a speaker exhibiting cone cry, typically, as you play above the 12th fret, it is like hearing your notes come out of the speaker not like EC in the Bluesbreaker album, but rather as if they are being played by a 10 year old child who has not played guitar much.

As to doping being something to reinforce the surround, sure, I agree with this. But I also suggest that the surround can be reinforced without doping the extended edge of the cone with 1/2" of dope. No, i feel strongly that that dope here exists to control the cone area that produces cone cry. Skip that 1/2" coating and see what you get, that would be my suggestion.

Anyway, I love your speakers and always appreciate your thoughts. However, in this case, I have to disagree with you on a few points. Sorry, Jim. My wish here is to not confuse this issue of cone cry any more than it already is, all in the hopes of helping someone get the most from their TW clone.

BTW, your 2 watts at output is looking like at least 20 in that video. Are you sure about this? Take care.

P.S. I read this from the Eminence site regarding their Wizard speaker after my original post and thought it pertains to this discussion so I am copying it here in my last post:

(From Eminence) "Using the Wizard in an open back cabinet is an "at your own risk" situation. For optimal performance, we recommend the Wizard for a closed back cabinet. The Wizard is one of the most efficient, detailed guitar speakers we offer. These are good traits, but also reasons that make it more prone to accentuating non-musical nuances, known as “cone cry.” Cone cry is inherent in all guitar speakers that use lightweight, full paper cones. It is easily found with a noise signal generator and a test sweep on any model, but typically, it is not audible when playing guitar normally through the speaker.

If cone cry does create a problem during normal playing, it is not necessarily a case of having the speaker in the wrong cabinet. We feel it could be a combination of things, like a bad pairing of speaker, amp, cabinet and/or the guitar. Even playing style and pick attack can be culprits. Unfortunately, it is difficult to predict where cone cry might occur, which makes recommending for or against specific applications impossible. We have found from testing various situations that an open back cabinet is a key contributor. For what it's worth, this has not been a big problem with this speaker. We have only seen a few isolated incidents since its release in 2005. We have heard from many people, including some manufacturers, who are using the Wizard in open back cabinets with good results."
Last edited by rooster on Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Post by Scumback Speakers »

rooster, you're entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong on many points, IMO.

Cone cry can happen anywhere, not just above the 12th fret. The cone cry most complain about is on higher frets and thinner strings, but that doesn't mean it won't happen at lower strings (which I just demonstrated).

Cone cry is the production of a 2nd note, not quite an octave off from the fundamental tone. It sounds like someone can't reach the right note and sounds awful. Of course, the worse you have cone cry, the worse it sounds, the more it ranges from the fundamental note and it can happen in more than one register or frequency. The video I uploaded is a fine example of that.

As for doping, once again, I'm sorry but I don't agree with you.

When we're building speakers here in the shop we can build them without any dope and without any cone cry in the guitar's usable range (realistically from around 120hz up to 3k). We can also go search around for the particular resonant frequency that any speaker has that will produce cone cry, but typically not every guitar player is getting harmonics at 10khz too often.

The doping does a few things, it dampens the cone so it doesn't move too wildly under load, it extends the life of the cone by reinforcing the most vulnerable area around the frame edge where it rolls over, and it can help shape the tonal response by putting it in particular places and with predetermined thicknesses.

And if you use enough of it, you can kill cone cry to some extent but you'll wind up killing a lot of the character of the speaker by having too much doping applied, too.

Keep in mind that the speakers we're testing put out 97-100db with 1w at 3 feet. The camera was less than 2 feet from the speaker, so while it may "seem" really loud, it's not as loud as you think it is. I couldn't test 15-25 speakers per day with it at 20w...I'd be deaf!

I welcome anyone from TAG to drop by my shop in Whittier if they can do me the favor of making an appointment, and I'll be happy to take up 15-20 minutes of your time building a speaker from scratch, and letting them test it without dope to prove what I've said is true.

A lot has been made of cone cry, and while I may not be the world's expert on the subject, I'm going to put out that I likely have more experience than most, especially considering how many speakers from my former manufacturer I've had to fix that had cone cry. But I don't want to get on that rant, OK?

Hey, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, sir. Have a good weekend!
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Re: Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Post by Mark »

Completely off topic Jim. Do you have a video or clips comparing Scumnico (including PVC types) speakers to the current English Celestion Blue and Gold speakers?

Actually, it would great to hear vintage versus' Scumnico and Celestions.

Food for thought of course.
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Re: Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Post by Scumback Speakers »

Mark wrote:Completely off topic Jim. Do you have a video or clips comparing Scumnico (including PVC types) speakers to the current English Celestion Blue and Gold speakers?

Actually, it would great to hear vintage versus' Scumnico and Celestions.

Food for thought of course.
Mark, I'm probably not going to do any comparisons to the Cele Blue & Gold since that's not what I'm replicating for tone. I only have one original alnico silver left here, and that was already replicated by the Scumnico years ago.

I think it would be great to compare the S75-PVC alnico to an original but no one is coughing one up for me to do those tests, so that pretty much kills that one.

As for the Gold & Blue, there are quite a few youtube clips many clients & players have done, so you can likely find one of those on YT. One is done by TGP member Seegs, and it's on the TGP as well, if you want to go take a look.

Right now I'm buried under a huge increase of orders, and I'm working 12 hour days just to catch up. In fact, my wife just told me to "Get off the computer. They'll read your reply tomorrow. It's Saturday night for f**k's sake!"

:wink:
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Re: Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Post by Colossal »

garlin wrote: Some friends and I did a comparison of the Celestion Gold AlNiCo, a Scumback G12H30 replica and some of my favorite original vintage Celestion G12's and G12M20, G12M25, and G12H30. The new speakers sounded nothing like the originals and I would only use them if I didn't know any better.
- garlin
Garlin, while I respect your longstanding experience in such matters, I applaud Jim for his effort and investment in both time and money to try to replicate the old speakers with modern materials. IIRC, Jim bought several hundred old speakers so that his statistical sample (n=300?) was large enough to form a decent model of what constitutes THE old sound. As you pointed out in another post, we all hear things differently. I have no doubt that there are some variances between old and new speakers and certainly the materials that went into them as well as the effects of time and use on the chemical and physical properties of those materials.

For me, I really have no interest in collecting vintage anything both for the outrageous prices that anything well preserved command as well as the fact that you are very, very unlikely to get something consistent. Most if not all the good speakers, cabs, and amps have been collected by people with the means or just the pure luck of being in the right place at the right time.

I personally focus on building great sounding amps and mating them with speakers that compliment the amp. I'm not interested in unobtanium, it's just not practical if you are going for consistency and reproducibility. I think the point is that music is in the ear of the beholder and beer-holder. If it sounds good to you and them, then it is.

I am of the opinion and I think that many would agree that a true artist sounds like him/herself mostly because of their technique, not their gear. Allan Holdsworth sounds exactly like Allan Holdsworth and can get pure, liquidy, harmonically fat legato out of a pushed pair of Twins, a SS Pierce, a Boogie, or Hughes & Kettner.

I used to be a Greenback guy and about 20 years ago had a '72 Marshall 4x12 with real Greenbacks. That was a great sound. Recently, I was quite floored to find that a single EVM12L in one of my custom 1x12 cabs (ported back) makes a pair of greenbacks in a closed back 2x12 sound like music reflecting in a coffee can. The EV is just so much bigger, clear, and wider sounding (to my ear). Now I have tight, articulate, and almost sub-sonic low end that compliments my playing style and interests (I sound like Alex Lifeson of Rush meets Adam Jones of Tool).

Just some thoughts.
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Re: Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Post by Scumback Speakers »

garlin wrote:
from garlin -
Some friends and I did a comparison of the Celestion Gold AlNiCo, a Scumback G12H30 replica and some of my favorite original vintage Celestion G12's and G12M20, G12M25, and G12H30. The new speakers sounded nothing like the originals and I would only use them if I didn't know any better.
- garlin
I don't doubt you heard what you say. The fact of the matter is there was a WIDE variance in tonal quality and sound output from the over 500 pre rola & rola Celestions I bought to evaluate. I've heard hundreds that sounded like A$$, and I've heard a very small percentage that sound better than the Scumbacks.

But at some point you have to decide if you want rare great sounding speakers that cost $400-500 each, assuming you have the means to buy them, or if something that is made currently on a widely available scale for 1/3rd the price and within 2-3% of the holy grail tone is going to work for you.

Don't get me wrong, if you can afford to buy pre rola Celestions, do it. I sure did. But it's a crap shoot at best, and you can buy a lot of "meh" pre rola Celestions while you are searching. Perhaps you have a few "holy grail" tone Celestions in your stable, which is great. But I found only 1 in 10-15 actually met that tonal standard for me, the local and touring players that evaluated them and the speaker testing done at Orange County Speaker Repair over the course of several years.

But since taking over production here in California directly a year ago, significant quality, tone and reliability factors are now present that weren't available with the blue frame speakers.

As for the Cele Gold/Blue etc you tried, they are not trying to replicate the 60/70's speakers at all, so I'm not surprised they didn't do it for you.
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Re: Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Post by Reeltarded »

The reissue 30s aren't in the same ballpark as the originals. I have a pair of mod. 1982 cabs that are wicked. Almost any 25 reissue can be forced to sound good after a time, and Jim's 25s always sound good to me at any old time.

The best ones are the early 15s and 20s, but I ate all those. :)
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Re: Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Post by Bob S »

Not wanting to derail from the Celestion/Scumback discussion but...
for a Rocket I use an oversize 4x12 closed back with JBL D123's.
In the first 60 seconds the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
But beware, good ones are difficult to come by, and they are ridiculously expensive to re-cone.
Another killer combination for the Rocket is 2x12 G12M/Blue.
For a Liverpool I like a 2x12 G12M/G12H.
I hope that sometime soon I will try some Scumbacks.
We are all on the same quest (each of us with different ears).
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Re: Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Post by Mark »

The question I've heard before is how do the scumbacks age?

There was question over how the treatment to the cones effects there tone over the years.

I have no idea if there is an issue or not, but if the cones are treated it may be a good question.

Any typing issues are due to auto correct on the wife's iPhone. :oops:

Edit: Why do the older speakers sound different to the newer speakers, the same company still exists though I imagine different materials have been used after some testing. Has anyone tried the WGS speakers?
I've never warmed to their clips, but these seem like great guys.
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Re: Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Post by M Fowler »

Nothing scientific about my observations but I went from not liking my Scumback H75-16HP-LHDC speakers in 212 slant cab having a weird tone to being my favorite speakers.

One day I was playing and noticed the speakers had a totally different sweet tone great for Trainwreck and Marshall types. Great power handling as well.

If this is break in then it has happened to me.

Mark
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Re: Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Post by Mark »

Thanks for the reply Mark. I haven't owned many speakers. I've had a 10" Weber signature which I sold, I currently have a 10" Weber Silver Ten in a Champ style amp. I like it as it has great bass response but it doesn't have the Celestion bark.

I have an 18 watter which uses a Celestion Blue and Celestion anniversary H30 they sound good together though I'd like a bit more bass from the amp. Otherwise it would be an excellent amp.

Edit: I've also owned a Boogie Celestion 90 watt speaker, it's okay but it doesn't have a lot of bass response in a combo. I prefer Celestion 65 watters to this speaker.

I've built a few Express prototypes and I've found a good bass response to be necessary from the speaker and a sealed cab. I had thought the 55hz speakers to be ideal for the Express amps as KF has said this is his favorite speaker, only to find out KF used Greenbacks, so I'm a lot more cautious now.

Edit: I did try the forementioned 65 watters with a friends Express clone. I was surprised the 65 watters in an open back cab actually could cut it with this amp.
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Re: Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Post by geetarpicker »

I currently own four 4x12 Marshall cabs. My two favorite cabs are both late 60s basketweaves (straight and slant) with Pulsonic 75hz cone G12M 25s. These two cabs don't see much stage use these days, but they are my go to cabs for studio work. Interestingly my basketweave slant sounds even a little thicker and more balanced than my straight so it gets used the most. I've had similar period G12H 30s, and though I like them for some cleaner rhythm I've never really bonded with them for lead. Even though they can sound a little bigger for some rhythm depending on the range on the neck, they still end up sounding thinner to me for lead work. In time I've fully settled on the old 25s as my favorite, both with my vintage Marshalls and two original Express amps.

That all said I have also have two other cabs that I specifically use for road work, one a straight from about '71 that was stripped, clear coated, and regrilled with repro basketweave cloth. Maybe some day I'll get it recovered. It has had Scumback 25 watt rated M75s in it for several years now. At first I found the speakers a bit bright in the extreme top end and for a year or two ran the cab with two layers of felt stapled over each speaker cutout inside before installing the speaker. After a couple years of gigging I eventually was able to pull out the felt as the speakers had more fully broken in and had become more settled down in the top end. It's a nice sounding cab though I can't say it sounds exactly like my original pulsonic cone cabs but I find in a live situation it's close enough and the sound system, sound man, and other factors may play just as big a part of the equation as the speakers do IMHO. If anything the difference in these M75s vs my originals is that they are a little dirtier sounding, and with a wreck it can be a bit harder to get a clean tone. Once the amp is pushed the speakers actually sound more similar to my old ones than they do for the more delicate stuff.

I also have another much newer (mid 90s perhaps?) slant cab that I have loaded with Scumbacks, being a pair of M75s and a pair of H75 30s. This cab has a little bit of particle board in it for bracing, but the back has been changed to ply like the rest of my cabs originally had. This cab is a little looser and darker sounding than my other "gigging" cab, but with a Fender guitar that's not really a bad thing as it's smooths things out a little. A PAF Gibson however through this same cab can almost get too loose and compressed but it's still a very usuable cab. Believe it or not the speakers in this cab were in a flood and FULLY submerged for several days and I had left them for dead in my storage shed in boxes after pulling them from another cab. After a year of sitting out in the shed where it gets quite warm on sunny days I decided to test them and they worked fine! I've now been gigging with them for over a year year without any buzz or other issues. Pretty crazy the speakers survived yet alone sound pretty darn good but who knows they may die any day now but I'm keeping my fingers crossed... This cab mainly is used with my '68 Marshall Superbass 100 or my self built Metroamp 50 clone, though I've used both of these "gigging" cabs from time to time with my wreck clones I built for myself. I did play one gig earlier this year at the Nashville Hard Rock Cafe with my Scumback equiped slant cab and my original '85 Stancor tranny Express and it sounded very very nice.

I'll also mention both my Scumback equiped cabs either live in a trailer, pickup truck under a toneau cover, or in a bus bay 24/7/365, other than the gigs themselves of course. I treat them hard as working mans tools and they still have survived. I baby my old cabs and speakers, but not these at all.

Do the Scumbacks compare to the old speakers that they are supposed to replicate? To me I think they were the best thing going a few years back to replicate the old speakers, though I'll admit I haven't tried any more recent offerings. Still, I've been happy with them for live use and save my originals for the studio. I also do quite a few fly dates with rented gear and often new stock cabs, and the Scumback equiped cabs are SO much above the typical Vintage 30 or 75 watt speaker modern cabs for my ears at least. IMHO they are far far from terrible sounding which was term used before...jeees... I'm pretty picky though with how I mic any of my cabs and I always travel with my own mics even on fly dates with rental amps. For stage use a Sennheiser e906 (not to be confused with the cheaper e609) works quite well if only given a single channel, and if I really have the tweak time, a soundman who cares, and decent mic pres I'll bring out a pair of mics usually my Sennheiser 421 and Royer 121L ribbon and mix them together.

GK
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Re: Favourite speakers and cabs for Trainwreck amps.

Post by Mark »

Very good reply Glenn.

Does this mean you'd recommend that I replace the Anniversary H30 with a Scumback?

I know of one guy who uses a 55hz speaker with a Celestion Blue in his 18 watter. I probably should hear it.
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