Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen

[Mark]

Good point Richie, I also remember Hogy telling people shielded cable wasn't in Express amps in the early days. So a lot people weren't particularly sympathic when the Komets were cloned for this reason. Khama was the word used at the time.

I've put that behind me I think the positive is this hasn't turned into a mess and everyone is still civil to each other as far as I can tell.

[Richie]

deleted

[Hogy]

RJ, I appreciate that. Thanks.

Hogy

[RJ Guitars]

No problem, its a good discussion for the forum to work thru

[Mark]

I don't want to be seen as flaming anyone here, but I don't want it assumed that the rule of not ripping off amps in productions was carried forward. As I have stated in the Yahoo days, I'm here to build a better mouse trap, if I have to learn by cloning than so be it.

I seem to remember that when this forum started out, there was some kind of ethical reluctance to ripping off amps that are in current production. Which, of course, the Songwriter very much is.

My view is if we are to have hard and fast rules then we should shut the forum down. Amps should be cloned on a case by case basis as stated earlier.

As far as building a Komet goes, if I want to build a Komet 60 and want to put VVR, footswitchable gain, presence-resonance control, DC filaments and a different transformer set, do I have to purchase a Komet 60 as a platform and at what point does it cease to be a Komet 60?

For the record I have no interest in cloning or purchasing a Komet amp, I put this up hypothetically as this is the brand discussed. Perhaps Marshall 1987 would be a better name to be inserted as it has always been in production and yet there is no moral dilemma about cloning them. I'd even bet that Hogy's built one in his time, who hasn't?

I think this rule moves towards the ridiculous if we look at Richie, he came up with the Marshall TMB 36 watt amp. This amp is now in production, does this mean he can't build his own amp?

For the record, I believe this is an unworkable rule and we should judge things on a case by case basis. This isn't meant to flame or annoy, I don't want this thread brought up at a later date with everyone saying we were in agreement on this topic.

I do wish Hogy well with his business and I do appreciate his replies to my questions. I have no bad feelings towards Hogy, I simply disagree as I'm allowed to do.

[Hogy]

I

As far as building a Komet goes, if I want to build a Komet 60 and want to put VVR, footswitchable gain, presence-resonance control, DC filaments and a different transformer set, do I have to purchase a Komet 60 as a platform and at what point does it cease to be a Komet 60?

I thought I had made my position clear. Maybe not, so here it is again:

If you want to build one for yourself, be my guest. Improve it all you want, make it your own.

If you make a business out of selling copies, chassis, face plates, look alike headboxes, schematics, kits, etc. p.p., you're stealing from me.

Same thing with those "Asteroid" threads. You guys are giving away my schematics and layouts to hundreds of people. On what planet is it ok to give away other people's property? Not on mine. Komet still pays royalties for that circuit. You're not only stealing from me, you're stealing from Ken Fischer's family. The guy you all respect so much, remember? "Kenny"?


And that about sums it up,

Hogy

[HeeBGB]

I

As far as building a Komet goes, if I want to build a Komet 60 and want to put VVR, footswitchable gain, presence-resonance control, DC filaments and a different transformer set, do I have to purchase a Komet 60 as a platform and at what point does it cease to be a Komet 60?

I thought I had made my position clear. Maybe not, so here it is again:

If you want to build one for yourself, be my guest. Improve it all you want, make it your own.

If you make a business out of selling copies, chassis, face plates, look alike headboxes, schematics, kits, etc. p.p., you're stealing from me.

Same thing with those "Asteroid" threads. You guys are giving away my schematics and layouts to hundreds of people. On what planet is it ok to give away other people's property? Not on mine. Komet still pays royalties for that circuit. You're not only stealing from me, you're stealing from Ken Fischer's family. The guy you all respect so much, remember? "Kenny"?


And that about sums it up,

Hogy

No offense Hogy but....the chassis is a box with holes in it. You don't own that so please don't tell us that we're stealing from you. The schematic does not belong to you if you didn't draw the artwork...so again don't tell us we're stealing from you. The circuit doesn't belong to you or Ken or anyone. It is public domain so once again don't tell us we are stealing from you. Actually there is NOTHING on your list that you can actually lay claim to since you did not list trade dress. That is to say the only people stealing from you according to the laws of this country are people using your trade dress. IF someone was stealing from you why haven't you reported this theft? It is because you don't have a legal leg to stand on.

[Hogy]

IF someone was stealing from you why haven't you reported this theft? It is because you don't have a legal leg to stand on.

No, I don't have a legal leg to stand on.

I'm simply telling you what, in my view of the world, is dishonorable behavior.

You're going to do whatever you want to do. If you want it, you should have it. That's how it is in the real world. Go ahead and justify...


Regards, Hogy

[HeeBGB]

IF someone was stealing from you why haven't you reported this theft? It is because you don't have a legal leg to stand on.

No, I don't have a legal leg to stand on.

I'm simply telling you what, in my view of the world, is dishonorable behavior.

You're going to do whatever you want to do. If you want it, you should have it. That's how it is in the real world. Go ahead and justify...


Regards, Hogy

There's nothing to justify. The laws of this land are clear. If you don't like them go change them. What's dishonorable is lying. ie: "there is no shielded cable in a Trainwreck".

[Allynmey]

http://youtu.be/S-IkWpm7TS0

Here we go again....

I hope our friend from down south isn't re-writing history again...

[xtian]

Where is the *ducking behind the couch* emoticon?

[Littlewyan]

We need to see this from Hogy's side, he builds and sells amps for a living so hes obviously going to be a bit iffy when he sees people cloning his amps and writing about it on a public forum. I imagine what hes worried about more than anything is a company like Ceriatone getting hold of the schematic and then selling kits to build his amp.

Now Hogy has said we can build our own clones, he just doesn't want details of the clones or his amps being made available to the public. I understand our side of the argument as well, we are just builders that like to share what we've made and I love doing that, but when it comes to current production amps we do need to be careful. Don't throw Marshall at me as an example, they are a massive company that probably didn't even notice a dent in profits when people started selling JTM45 kits. Hogy is a much smaller company than Marshall and at the moment his amps are exclusive and he'd like to keep them that way. That is whats giving his business an edge so to speak.

Also with regards to feeding us false info, he was just trying to protect his friend's design. I can understand that.

Right I've said my bit, so lets discuss this in a civil manner. Hogy is a valued forum member and it'd be sad if we lost him over this.

[Mark]

I think we should agree to disagree, keep it civil.

As I've said before no cloning of current production amps is unworkable.

To use the Songwriter 30 as an example, the bass control has been used before to my knowledge by Australian amp builder Ivan Richards, he used it in his amps before the Songwriter 30 was built, (come to think of it the Kendrick Trainwreck uses something similar too.) Does this mean Hogy should remove this control from the Songwriter 30 as it is in an amp that is currently in production?

Of course not. It would be like removing the high cut from the Komet amps because it's in Vox amps and they are in current production. It would be all quite pointless and the amp would be worse for it's omission.

I believe cloning is a great way of finding circuits that work for you. To me it's a lot like learning to play covers as a means of learning how to play guitar and music.

Let's build that better mouse trap.

[ToneMerc]

I think we should agree to disagree, keep it civil.

As I've said before no cloning of current production amps is unworkable.

To use the Songwriter 30 as an example, the bass control has been used before to my knowledge by Australian amp builder Ivan Richards, he used it in his amps before the Songwriter 30 was built, (come to think of it the Kendrick Trainwreck uses something similar too.) Does this mean Hogy should remove this control from the Songwriter 30 as it is in an amp that is currently in production?

Of course not. It would be like removing the high cut from the Komet amps because it's in Vox amps and they are in current production. It would be all quite pointless and the amp would be worse for it's omission.

I believe cloning is a great way of finding circuits that work for you. To me it's a lot like learning to play covers as a means of learning how to play guitar and music.

Let's build that better mouse trap.

Mark, you came into this "build" thread post RJ/Hogy resolution. Since this started out as a build thread, if you have no real intention of building one of these, why keep stirring the pot here in this thread?

If you want to get into some great philosophical debate fine, start another thread, otherwise you are heading down the troll path.

Personally, I'm punching boards as this was a build thread!


TM

[Mark]

True Tone Merc, I have no interest in building a Komet, but I don't want the terms of the forum I've been a part of for over a decade dictated to me either.

I don't believe I'm a troll or stirring the pot. I'm a long serving forum member and former sole moderator. I know what the values and aspirations of this forum better than most.

We are here to build amps and help each along the way, not to come up with goofy rules stating why we can't build amps.

I'll bow out of this discussion as requested in order to keep the peace.