Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen

Express, Liverpool, Rocket, Dirty Little Monster, etc.

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Jackie Treehorn
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Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen

Post by Jackie Treehorn »

In times like these, i think back to Ken's postcard to Mark in which he said he didn't mind people building his amps for their personal use. He didn't like people doing it for profit. Hogy seems to be echoing that sentiment, which I see as a gentleman's non compete agreement. We're going to talk about these amps, share our appreciation, troubleshoot builds, etc. but don't take what's shared to the market. Don't get between Komet and their customers. It's a commerce thing, not a clone thing.

If you sell an amp, don't take a bite out of Komet's equity by positioning it in the market as an alternative.

This is not a forum for beginners. We don't need dedicated chassis, boards, kits, build docs, etc. So, it shouldn't be problematic to have a gentleman's agreement. Acknowledging that we're sufficiently skilled in the art to connect our own dots, then becomes a bit of a barrier to entry to folks who just want a fast tracked, cheaper Komet.

Back in the old days of the yahoo group, when people were just starting to build their wrecks, it did seem like there was a lot of paranoia and hoarding of info. However, clones did not lower the value of the real wrecks, they're appr 3x more money and the family has a market for $6k clones. We build demand and that translates to increased profits. It's a sim biotic relationship when we respect each other. Komets are not generally in stores so word of mouth goes a long way and reputation.
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Richie
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Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen

Post by Richie »

Here we go again...what exactly is a "clone" was flogged to death to 3-4 years ago in the Dumble section.

TM

So, what was the conclusion of that flogging? Do you have a link to the thread there? I rarely enter the Dumbleland section. Searching there for Dumble clone could take days to find the right thread.:)

And now that both Trainwreck and Dumble are current production amps, whats the thought on this?
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ToneMerc
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Cloners Paradise

Post by ToneMerc »

matt h wrote:My .02*...." 7a) I was, however, extremely disappointed that... ONCE AGAIN... even for home, personal use, "cloning" has such a goddamned high priority around here. It doesn't promote learning, understanding, evolution, and it doesn't sharpen one's amp skills. There may be some discussion of starting with a clone and tweaking to taste, but that's still pretty weak. Most of the "it's no longer a clone" tweaks that apply still render things a massive, massive, unoriginal clone in my mind. It's not respectable in other fields. In fact, in other industries it is not only likened to, but actually contributes to, terrorist causes. Crafting visual and electrical replicas of long-gone products as a tribute? Yeah, okay, that might get a pass... ish. But really, WHY are you cloning? (the you being hypothetical and not directed at any one person).
Considering TAG is an amp building community of "cloners" your comments come across as very elitist and condesending. Furthermore, how can you make such a vast generalization that cloning does not promote learning, understanding and evolution? There are legacy TAG members with products on backlines and in studios that would certainly disagree with you.

Honestly, you present yourself as if "cloning" is beneath and mentally substandard to you. Therefore, if cloning is so bad and this place is a cloners paradise, then why are you really here at TAG?


TM
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martin manning
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Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen

Post by martin manning »

I'm with those who define a clone as something that copies the circuit, layout, and appearance exactly. An extreme example would use identical parts, and might easily be mistaken for an original. IMO it is unethical to build and sell such things unless they are clearly identifiable as copies, and do not violate any current copyright or patent protection.

In reality knowledge of the schematic and nominal component values may not be enough to reproduce the sound of an amp made by a talented boutique builder, as no two will be identical. If this last few percent of performance or just the cachet associated with the builder is important to a buyer, then he will be willing to pay for that builder's services. A DIY version should not be any threat to that market, unless it is misrepresented as or easily mistaken for an original. As someone said earlier, most builds here are more "in the style of" as opposed to true clones.

The real problem is that this is a public forum, and there will be those who will be ready to mass-produce kits as soon as the details are available. The relatively small numbers and nature of rj's packages should not be a big deal for the boutique builder, but a Ceriatone might be if the kit gains acceptance as a close approximation of the original. That is all the more likely if the circuit is really nothing special and easily assembled from off-the-shelf parts.
matt h
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Re: Cloners Paradise

Post by matt h »

ToneMerc wrote:Considering TAG is an amp building community of "cloners" your comments come across as very elitist and condesending. Furthermore, how can you make such a vast generalization that cloning does not promote learning, understanding and evolution? There are legacy TAG members with products on backlines and in studios that would certainly disagree with you.
Honestly, you present yourself as if "cloning" is beneath and mentally substandard to you. Therefore, if cloning is so bad and this place is a cloners paradise, then why are you really here at TAG?

TM
When I joined TAG I was not under the impression it was a "community of cloners" but rather a DIY community. More specifically, a DIFY (do it for yourself) community.

I think mentioning the "backline" that people generated based on cloning underscores, precisely, what Hogy's point is. Stealing an original circuit, selling it to a third party.

I understand that a first build is often a clone, typically of a circuit long gone by. I don't find fault with that. Perhaps some people need a little assistance and so a first-build-within-a-genre starts as a clone. If they never move beyond building it for their own enjoyment, and are honest about the fact that they're cloning: I have absolutely no beef. But what sort of actual exploration happens with a paint by the numbers clone? No experimentation, no development. You might passively acquire a skill in the process to emulate, but it doesn't translate to actual understanding.

But to try to pretend that using a different color wire makes it no longer a clone?

Yes, I will happily "condescend" all over that shit.

Can someone building a clone be proud of their work? As long as the craftsmanship is the scope of their pride, absolutely. You can't take credit for a circuit if you didn't design it. Selling someone else's circuit is theft. Multiple distinctions, multiple axes of distinction.

What I was specifically stating in the piece you quoted of my text was NOT that I was disappointed that cloning exists around here, but that it is at "SUCH A HIGH PRIORITY around here" (yelling because, yes, it really seems like the point is missed) At such a high priority that it is to the exclusion of development.

Wanna tie this back into The 'Wreckness of this forum? It's been brought up repeatedly that Ken used to publish really interesting in the Wreck pages. Why would you publish multiple MV styles?

To promote exploration? Sure seems consistent.

To promote cloning? ... Sorry not seeing it.


I'll make this more clear: Children often copy words or sentences, as exactly as possible, when learning how to read and write.

That doesn't fly when you're being asked to "write an essay."

(Edit to include this paragraph to clarify distinctions) Calligraphy is an impressive, impressive skill--it's an art. But I don't expect a calligrapher to self-identify as an author. If people only want to study Calligraphy, then call yourself a Calligrapher. If you're plagiarizing text (copying text without giving credit and royalties to the author), changing the hand doesn't mean it's any less plagiarism--and it's stealing. It's also illegal, clearly so.


I'm asking people to challenge themselves to start compose their own text(metaphorically speaking)--or at least to try.

If you find that condescending? That reflects more about you than it does about me.
Last edited by matt h on Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RockinRocket
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Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen

Post by RockinRocket »

I don't see a problem of selling Trainwreck Songwriter 30 chassis for community use especially since the real Songwriters were Trainwrecks to begin with. Did Ken even give permission to Komet to make their Songwriter amps? If it was the current family owners of Trainwreck I see no hesitation of DIY. My point of view is the same towards the new TW amps. It goes against Kens wishes to pimp his amps. However building a personal Trainwreck songwriter and not a Komet clone for personal use then no moral issues with me.
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Littlewyan
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Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen

Post by Littlewyan »

Ken designed a few amps for Komet and I did read somewhere about him giving Komet permission to build and sell the songwriter.
matt h
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Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen

Post by matt h »

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RockinRocket
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Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen

Post by RockinRocket »

"For Ken’s sixtieth birthday, he decided to build himself an amplifier. He didn’t follow any of his previous designs. He didn’t even bother making a schematic diagram of the circuit. Instead, he grabbed whatever parts he had lying around the basement and built an amp from them. The result was The Songwriter 30, a true Trainwreck. He named her “Inger”. Because Ken felt she was more about a clean sound, he thought Inger was a good amp for a songwriter. He liked hearing his ultra-light, early sixties SG junior through her because the sound of that combination was awesome and indescribable. Somehow the Gibson with its one P-90 almost sounded Fender-like."

Straight from the trainwreck.com site
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67plexi
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Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen

Post by 67plexi »

Times are not what they were in the past every one is fighting over the scraps. I spend hundreds of hours on the phone with Kenny years before
TAG was in existence. Ken played the Songwriter over the phone for me.
Some create and some copy. Look at what DR-Z did with the knowledge
Ken passed on took the ball and ran with it winner.
I don't have a dog in this fight.
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randalp3000
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Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen

Post by randalp3000 »

Lets start with I mean no disrespect to anyone. But seriously what is a SW? and a Rocket while we're at it?

Start with the obvious easy one, a Rocket is a vox AC30 top boost channel.

The SW is a vox AC30 Normal/Bright channel mixed together with a (bass) pot. Add a Marshall style bright channel parallel resistor/cap along with a stock ac30 PI and OP with a little negative feedback and SS recto. And since you have a leftover half triode run it in parallel for a little more balls.

So what is so original? It's just a different recipe combined from other recipes.

Hogy, I'm proud to say I've thrown down and purchased 2 Komets and they are beautiful, works of art. Unfortunately there are some things I would like to change and would rather build my own instead of modding your amp and misrepresenting it on a public stage.

I still plan on going through with the build for my own personal use/experimentation. I feel that we should do the build but I think posting schematics and layouts for the general public is crossing the line a bit. Also most of us want to try and build the original KF version with an octal PI so what's the big deal.

thanks for your time
randal

great discussion by the way.
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martin manning
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Re: Cloners Paradise

Post by martin manning »

matt h wrote:But what sort of actual exploration happens with a paint by the numbers clone? No experimentation, no development. You might passively acquire a skill in the process to emulate, but it doesn't translate to actual understanding.
This is getting a little far afield, but how much learning occurs in building a standard circuit is entirely up to the builder. The knowledge and understanding gained can be vast or virtually nothing. I would argue it is essential to understand why things are the way they are first, before going in another direction. Most of those other directions have been explored before anyway, and either live on in other circuits or for whatever reason became dead-ends.
matt h
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Re: Cloners Paradise

Post by matt h »

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Richie
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Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen

Post by Richie »

You can't take credit for a circuit if you didn't design it. Selling someone else's circuit is theft.
I think that too was mentioned, that they>[insert amp name] are not ALL original circuits. Every one of those amps have sections of, or circuits that are direct copies of other amps that came well before them.
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HeeBGB
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Re: Cloners Paradise

Post by HeeBGB »

matt h wrote:
martin manning wrote:I would argue it is essential to understand why things are the way they are first, before going in another direction.
Exactly. Paint by numbers doesn't address "why" and thus my analogy about copying letters.
Matt, with all due respect, you are wrong on this one. copying a circuit is absolutely an excellent way to learn. it is how I learned. At some point I started looking for information as to why I am putting a specific resistor in a specific place. You have to understand that not all people are that way though. Some people don't care why and that's fine too.

Bottom line is that at least part of what we do here IS CLONING. Some people will take it further and some won't and again, THAT"S OK.

As far as I am concerned a clone is when a schematic is copied. The layout and parts selection doesn't matter to me as far as something being called a clone or not. IMO if the circuit is copied it is a clone.

BOTTOM line is that the circuits were given to all of us free of charge by the tube manufacturers. How you decide to daisy chain the stages together doesn't make it your circuit. You're borrowing from someone else and telling us it's your design? that's BS. There are plenty of guitar companies out there building S-type and T-type guitars and calling them their own but to me they are all Fenders. I don't see anyone railing on about that cloning?



I was always under the impression that Ken did not want the Trainwreck name to continue on nor did he want the SW 30 in production. Not totally sure about the latter but I am sure about Ken not wanting TW to continue.

RJ please get back into the build that you started with this thread. Just call it something else other than Songwriter. Call it the Asteroid Cousin or the Songbird....I don't care but the one thing Hogy is correct about is that he and/or the Fisher family own the trademark on Songwriter 30.
Last edited by HeeBGB on Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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