Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen

[randalp3000]

RJ please get back into the build that you started with this thread. Just call it something else other than Songwriter. Call it the Asteroid Cousin or the Songbird....I don't care but the one thing Hogy is correct about is that he and/or the Fisher family own the trademark on Songwriter 30.

didn't someone give it the name Dongbiter already?

[HeeBGB]

RJ please get back into the build that you started with this thread. Just call it something else other than Songwriter. Call it the Asteroid Cousin or the Songbird....I don't care but the one thing Hogy is correct about is that he and/or the Fisher family own the trademark on Songwriter 30.

didn't someone give it the name Dongbiter already?

Well I didn't think the clips were anything to brag about but I wouldn't go that far!

[cbass]

Maybe it should be called" the guy who rhymes real good but is ugly and sucks at singin"

[passfan]

Well I cobbed one together , fiddled with the values in the filter, didn't really think it was worth all the hype , and turned it into something else. If you don't want yer panties in a wad , go commando.

[HeeBGB]

Maybe it should be called" the guy who rhymes real good but is ugly and sucks at singin"

If you drop the Rhyming part and use fat in its place it would be named after me!

[Hogy]

"For Ken’s sixtieth birthday, he decided to build himself an amplifier. He didn’t follow any of his previous designs. He didn’t even bother making a schematic diagram of the circuit. Instead, he grabbed whatever parts he had lying around the basement and built an amp from them. The result was The Songwriter 30, a true Trainwreck. He named her “Inger”. Because Ken felt she was more about a clean sound, he thought Inger was a good amp for a songwriter. He liked hearing his ultra-light, early sixties SG junior through her because the sound of that combination was awesome and indescribable. Somehow the Gibson with its one P-90 almost sounded Fender-like."

Straight from the trainwreck.com site

I don't know who wrote that text, but the "parts he had lying around the basement" were in the shape of two Constellations (a prototype and a finished product) we gave to Ken. He had expressed (pardon the pun) a wish to make a new amp, specifically with the idea of presenting it to a certain songwriter who played Komets at the time.

Ken wasn't feeling great and wasn't up to punching chassis, etc. He liked the transformers and output stage/power supply of the Constellation, so this made it easier for him.

We talked almost daily while the amps were built, and it was clear from the get-go that this would, at some point, become part of the Komet lineup. In fact, I built my own version at the same time from notes Ken phoned in. Except mine was built around an old, original RS Deluxe OT I had been wanting to use, and a killer set of matched EL37s. My amp has the octal PI as well.

By the time the amp was done, Ken was gone. So yes, it is true that Ken didn't get to send us the finished amp to put it into production. It is not true that he didn't want to see it produced.


And what exactly does any of that have to do with the subject at hand?

[RJ Guitars]

Interesting thread... It is about ethics (yes it is), and it was my ethics that Hogy appealed to... The boundary line of ethics is something that each person is free to draw for themselves. I didn't remove the offering because I thought it was wrong. I removed the it because I value goodwill and resolution of issues above the other things that can be gained in this situation.

RJ, I seem to remember that when this forum started out, there was some kind of ethical reluctance to ripping off amps that are in current production. Which, of course, the Songwriter very much is.

It's one thing to make your own version as a hobby project, but this seem to be headed in a different direction.

Offering kits, chassis, schematics and the like is very much stealing from me. At least that's how I see it.

By the way, Komet pays royalties to Ken's family for every Songwriter built. Would you like the address for where to send your checks?


Regards, Hogy, Komet Amplification

I didn't look real hard but I did look to see if I could find anything on a TAG ethics policy and didn't find anything. Based on the input from the moderators I don't expect support of any global measures in protecting amps currently in production. It gets kinda weird because almost every cool amp seems to be back into production. Any amp DIY building forum and the builders within them are going to need a source for parts for amps that are currently in production... not sure how that is going to work?

As stated earlier, I withdrew my offering to sponsor a group build out of respect for Hogy and also in order to do the best thing for the TAG forum.

In this particular case I offered parts for this build at cost - no profit. I occasionally do this to get more eyes and ears driving and evaluating the results. Not that I'm purely generous or have a bad understanding of capitalism, but I enjoy the company and wanted to evaluate the results of a few builders against my own. Any personal financial gain could potentially come later in the form of my own unique amp but was not a certainty. Evaluating an existing amp, then considering making my own loosely based but unique version, I would consider similar to the process that Ken Fischer used when he first built the Rocket and then later the Songwriter based on the AC-30 amp.

I never offer amp kits although many folks refer to them that way, I only provide parts packages for DIY efforts. In this case my schematic, chassis, circuit boards, and faceplate are all different than the Komet SongWriter. My planned build was going to have the same faceplate controls as the TW Inger build, although a slightly different layout... but things went south before that was evident. In hindsight I can appreciate that Hogy was nervous about the schematic... for future reference this is somewhere that a PM might go a long way toward coming to a good mutually beneficial solution.

I did potentially make a mistake in labeling the thread as a Songwriter build which indeed Komet has the exclusive right to profit from. At this point, I will point out that this is the first mentioning from myself that I think I did something wrong.

Paying a fee to the Fischer family - It's not going to happen but if paying a fee to use the names of Songwriter and/or Trainwreck was a possibility for the average amp builder, I'd wager that many folks would pay handsomely for the opportunity.

I'll finish my own amp and learn what I can and I think the other folks that indicated an interest in building one these are going forward as well. I'm not ready to say whether I'll post anything or not but I anticipate that a lot of info will exchange behind the scenes. I'd love to complete the initial intentions - anybody willing to work with me to get Hogy on board. He would be a great ally to have!

TAG has been a great resource to me and I appreciate all the folks that added their input to this thread.

[RockinRocket]

"For Ken’s sixtieth birthday, he decided to build himself an amplifier. He didn’t follow any of his previous designs. He didn’t even bother making a schematic diagram of the circuit. Instead, he grabbed whatever parts he had lying around the basement and built an amp from them. The result was The Songwriter 30, a true Trainwreck. He named her “Inger”. Because Ken felt she was more about a clean sound, he thought Inger was a good amp for a songwriter. He liked hearing his ultra-light, early sixties SG junior through her because the sound of that combination was awesome and indescribable. Somehow the Gibson with its one P-90 almost sounded Fender-like."

Straight from the trainwreck.com site

I don't know who wrote that text, but the "parts he had lying around the basement" were in the shape of two Constellations (a prototype and a finished product) we gave to Ken. He had expressed (pardon the pun) a wish to make a new amp, specifically with the idea of presenting it to a certain songwriter who played Komets at the time.

Ken wasn't feeling great and wasn't up to punching chassis, etc. He liked the transformers and output stage/power supply of the Constellation, so this made it easier for him.

We talked almost daily while the amps were built, and it was clear from the get-go that this would, at some point, become part of the Komet lineup. In fact, I built my own version at the same time from notes Ken phoned in. Except mine was built around an old, original RS Deluxe OT I had been wanting to use, and a killer set of matched EL37s. My amp has the octal PI as well.

By the time the amp was done, Ken was gone. So yes, it is true that Ken didn't get to send us the finished amp to put it into production. It is not true that he didn't want to see it produced.


And what exactly does any of that have to do with the subject at hand?

Well my opinion of cloning it is based on what Kens intentions for the amp was. The Trainwreck site did not mention it was built for Komet but rather a personal birthday gift. My point of view of cloning a Songwriter is based on there being a KF Trainwreck logo amp built. After all folks just want to build Kens amps. Im not suggesting cloning Komet but building a songwriter based on information gathered either by information you have provided or photos of TW Songwirters or any other link of information. Now don't be offended that I dont believe everything I read. For all I know the Fischer family is cashing in on a licence deal just like the reissues.

[redshark]

I think I should mention this infomation which has been published before by Hogy himself. There were 2 songwriters, Inger which is the one that was mentioned in the trainwreck webpage and Bree that is the amp the songwriter is a replica of. Both amps are a little diferent, I think inger has the octal PI and Bree has a 12ax7.
Talking about the ethical side of this thread is kinda difficult because I had built 2 trainwreck clones myself and yes, I call them clones because the parts are identical to a real trainwreck (at least the ones that matter the most) but I can understand the point of view of Hogy or Ken. If I was a knowledgeable guy that builds an amp that was so unique and coveted I would like to be the only person that profits on that amp and no one else. Even if it's based on something else, as long as it is not a clone or an identical replica of a popular design.
The rocket is NOT a clone of a VOX ac30. The architecture of the amp inside is diferent. It's based on a VOX ac30 top boost but not the same.
So that is my opinion, but I also agree with RJ that if there's no profit on his part, this is an amplifier builder forum and we all can experiment on it, as long as nobody starts to buy 20 chassis and sell them openly as a songwriter copy it's all good.
As I said, it's complicated!!

Happy New year everyone!!!
I hope 2015 bring more amp builds!!

[Mark]

As I'm no longer participating in this discussion but if you guys come up with at least one resolution, could it be that we all try and resolve issues off-line first?

I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I get the feeling this didn't happen.

[Allynmey]

I don't know who wrote that text, but the "parts he had lying around the basement" were in the shape of two Constellations (a prototype and a finished product) we gave to Ken. He had expressed (pardon the pun) a wish to make a new amp, specifically with the idea of presenting it to a certain songwriter who played Komets at the time.

Ken wasn't feeling great and wasn't up to punching chassis, etc. He liked the transformers and output stage/power supply of the Constellation, so this made it easier for him.

We talked almost daily while the amps were built, and it was clear from the get-go that this would, at some point, become part of the Komet lineup. In fact, I built my own version at the same time from notes Ken phoned in. Except mine was built around an old, original RS Deluxe OT I had been wanting to use, and a killer set of matched EL37s. My amp has the octal PI as well.

By the time the amp was done, Ken was gone. So yes, it is true that Ken didn't get to send us the finished amp to put it into production. It is not true that he didn't want to see it produced.


And what exactly does any of that have to do with the subject at hand?

HMMMMMMMM....not exactly the story I remember from discussions with Ken's friends and a family member after his death. Ken passed on the "Connie" "nuff said". Ken never shared the "Songwriter" with Komet for personal reasons as I remember it. I guess finding some broke family members with the rights to his estate is the same as having Ken's permission...right????

[Hogy]

HMMMMMMMM....not exactly the story I remember

You got a story, I have facts.

You talked to "friends", I talked to Ken.

Believe what you want.

[Teleguy61]

Now we're getting personal.
I chose to believe Allyn.

[M Fowler]

At least we know the schematic and layout is accurate.

[Bob Simpson]

I had no interest in one of these...

Now I'm going to build one, cause it pisses me off to be bullied out of it...

Bob