Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
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Littlewyan
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Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
I'll bow out as well. It wasn't anything to do with me in the first place.
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RJ Guitars
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Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
I don't think it's such a bad thing that the thread has transitioned from a build thread into an ethics discussion. I think the discussion is extremely useful if not critical for us to get back to the fun stuff. In the meantime, I think it's useful for everybody to stay in and I'll encourage everyone to think through it a bit and post their thoughts...
I'm considering it all and I'll post a more thorough response once the family time and Holiday events are behind me and I've had time to think it through a bit more.
I'm considering it all and I'll post a more thorough response once the family time and Holiday events are behind me and I've had time to think it through a bit more.
Good, Fast, or Cheap -- Pick two...
http://www.rjguitars.net
http://www.rjaudioresearch.com/
http://diyguitaramps.prophpbb.com/
http://www.rjguitars.net
http://www.rjaudioresearch.com/
http://diyguitaramps.prophpbb.com/
Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
My .02* (valued less than actual money). I'm throwing numbers on the parts of this, but only to keep things straight in my own mind. don't be offended/read it as a lecture. It's long as hell, so feel free to just disregard it. This is something I've thought a lot about in general. Not all of it is relevant (specifically) to this particular discussion at hand (meaning: not specific to Hogy, RJ, TAG, Komet, the Songwriter, etc.) but there's applicability throughout.
1) This isn't an ethics discussion. This is an ethics-vs-legal discussion. The laws protects metric turd-tons of ethically questionable, or wrong, things. If the standard of the forum is reflective of the same standards employed by commercial builders, Legality is all that matters. Not morality. And ethics, only to the extent that the law is followed.
2) the problem with intellectual property. Again, this is a legal issue to some ("hey, there ain't no way to call a circuit yer property!" camp). This has ALWAYS rubbed me the wrong way because it simply doesn't happen in other fields. I'm coming from academia and plagiarism dressed up with a fancy cover on your essay is STILL plagiarism and gets you thrown out of my classes... and at most of the institutions I've taught at, gets you thrown out of the school. I've never understood why there's such a strong protection of theft in this industry.
3) It's complete BS to talk about Fender ripping off RCA. Why? RCA produced tubes and released schematics for public-address amplifiers specifically so people would buy their product (and have a home for them).
4) It's marginal (not complete) to talk about Marshall as a cloner. Except they were cloning an out of production amp that was hard to locate even when IN production. It took a decade before Marshall evolved enough that their plagiarism wouldn't get them thrown out of a university, but merely get them failed for a course.
5) I really want to support substantially stronger protection of intellectual property. I do. But I feel sick when I say that. Why? I'll want to protect it when I see it. Most of the manufacturer's (not necessarily specifically related to this discussion or the builder in question, so do not take this as a specific ad-hominem attack) throw claims of IP and legal-threats around. When the truth typically comes out (e.g., what the circuit actually is) it turns out, overwhelmingly, not to be anything beyond plagiarism. You can't change one sentence in a book and call it a new book. That gets you expelled.
5a) I firmly, FIRMLY believe that most of the threats of "don't release my schematics!" have nothing to do with protecting sales for a unit, but more specifically what would happen if XXXXAmps "all original design!" that had been so lauded in some commercial review came out to be "not remotely original at all, but rather a pre-existing published design." The amp would sound the same. the build quality would be the same--but the builder's reputation would (or rather, SHOULD) be destroyed. Why? Making false claims of originality. Making false claims to intellectual property.
6) There's a "how much is enough to be original" if evolving a circuit from one to a "new thing" is really at stake here. There are only so many ways to hook up a triode (or pentode) and there are only so many tube types suitable to audio production/reproduction. Yeah, there's nuance there. There are only twelve tones in Western music but we sure manage to kick out a metric-turdton of variation on that.
7) I proposed, in the FS/T section, this chassis be sold with "universal" type socket punches, specifically to encourage experimentation with the circuit. It wasn't exclusively panned as an idea, but categorically rejected by those most interested in the project. Given that I have ZERO commercial interest in the project, or the sale of the chassis, it's not that my ego was hurt. see second part of this.
7a) I was, however, extremely disappointed that... ONCE AGAIN... even for home, personal use, "cloning" has such a goddamned high priority around here. It doesn't promote learning, understanding, evolution, and it doesn't sharpen one's amp skills. There may be some discussion of starting with a clone and tweaking to taste, but that's still pretty weak. Most of the "it's no longer a clone" tweaks that apply still render things a massive, massive, unoriginal clone in my mind. It's not respectable in other fields. In fact, in other industries it is not only likened to, but actually contributes to, terrorist causes. Crafting visual and electrical replicas of long-gone products as a tribute? Yeah, okay, that might get a pass... ish. But really, WHY are you cloning? (the you being hypothetical and not directed at any one person).
VIII) Even though this wasn't intended to be directly to/at Hogy, the issues are directly related to what came up in this thread, and I'm sure he will, and can, take it as a personal attack. It's not personal, but speaking to industry standards applicable to many builders, some on this board, some not. If people build a clone, and throw their own label on it, throw a slightly different superficial external aesthetic twist to make it LOOK different-- in my eyes? It's still a clone.
8a) I absolutely ADMIRE AND RESPECT the decision to license the 'Wreck circuits from Ken in his life and continuing to his family after it by the builder (or builders) who have done so.
8.5) BUT-- Being the best of a breed which is, by default, horribly unethical doesn't necessarily command the highest respect. Some respect? absolutely. Exactly as much as is actually warranted. If actual IP output extends to a triangle on a box--I've literally seen kindergarteners draw that. I have a really, really hard time saying there was any appreciable or higher intellectual work performed. Beethoven ripped it up as a child prodigy. he did not scribble a triangle on a box and get called a prodigy for it.
9) The industry as a whole deserves better. It won't deliver. This board can be better. The members here can be better. This includes commercial builders (and I mean anyone building an amp and selling it at all.) We should hold ourselves to a higher standard. If you've made money oroducing a knock-off, or replica, of someone else's circuit, you're a cloner. It may be legally permissible, but it requires some serious mental acrobatics to call it ethical-- and more to the point, ethical ENOUGH to feel you've got a leg to stand on in a discussion of best ethical practices. (see original comment about separating legality from morality from ethics-beyond-is-law-followed).
As a final thought, and challenge-- as long as commercial builders are still producing clones (not necessarily directed at the amp or mfg this sprung up about), I encourage people to continue ripping off their work. Just understand it's one criminal ripping off another criminal. There ain't no honor among thieves.
I challenge EVERYONE, however, to move beyond cloning. There's zero obligation to (see above paragraph), for now... and there never will be, until people actually start doing it en masse.
When someone DOES offer up something that is original, that warrants an ETHICAL claim of IP (even if the legality hasn't been filed), please people--respect it. If you want to use it, license it. At least open that line of dialogue even if the information was opened up in a "public discussion". Licensing good ideas is more likely to CREATE more good ideas-- there's finally an incentive.
I've had my ideas (from little ones to big ones) ripped off and monetized by others from amateurs to corporate manufacturers. It sucks. The response is "gee, you shouldn't have shared it if you expected anyone to respect it"--and while that may "legally" be the case... it's a terrible standard to live by.
The status quo, and you have permission to keep on quo-ing.
Be better, not because you have to be, because you know you should be.
1) This isn't an ethics discussion. This is an ethics-vs-legal discussion. The laws protects metric turd-tons of ethically questionable, or wrong, things. If the standard of the forum is reflective of the same standards employed by commercial builders, Legality is all that matters. Not morality. And ethics, only to the extent that the law is followed.
2) the problem with intellectual property. Again, this is a legal issue to some ("hey, there ain't no way to call a circuit yer property!" camp). This has ALWAYS rubbed me the wrong way because it simply doesn't happen in other fields. I'm coming from academia and plagiarism dressed up with a fancy cover on your essay is STILL plagiarism and gets you thrown out of my classes... and at most of the institutions I've taught at, gets you thrown out of the school. I've never understood why there's such a strong protection of theft in this industry.
3) It's complete BS to talk about Fender ripping off RCA. Why? RCA produced tubes and released schematics for public-address amplifiers specifically so people would buy their product (and have a home for them).
4) It's marginal (not complete) to talk about Marshall as a cloner. Except they were cloning an out of production amp that was hard to locate even when IN production. It took a decade before Marshall evolved enough that their plagiarism wouldn't get them thrown out of a university, but merely get them failed for a course.
5) I really want to support substantially stronger protection of intellectual property. I do. But I feel sick when I say that. Why? I'll want to protect it when I see it. Most of the manufacturer's (not necessarily specifically related to this discussion or the builder in question, so do not take this as a specific ad-hominem attack) throw claims of IP and legal-threats around. When the truth typically comes out (e.g., what the circuit actually is) it turns out, overwhelmingly, not to be anything beyond plagiarism. You can't change one sentence in a book and call it a new book. That gets you expelled.
5a) I firmly, FIRMLY believe that most of the threats of "don't release my schematics!" have nothing to do with protecting sales for a unit, but more specifically what would happen if XXXXAmps "all original design!" that had been so lauded in some commercial review came out to be "not remotely original at all, but rather a pre-existing published design." The amp would sound the same. the build quality would be the same--but the builder's reputation would (or rather, SHOULD) be destroyed. Why? Making false claims of originality. Making false claims to intellectual property.
6) There's a "how much is enough to be original" if evolving a circuit from one to a "new thing" is really at stake here. There are only so many ways to hook up a triode (or pentode) and there are only so many tube types suitable to audio production/reproduction. Yeah, there's nuance there. There are only twelve tones in Western music but we sure manage to kick out a metric-turdton of variation on that.
7) I proposed, in the FS/T section, this chassis be sold with "universal" type socket punches, specifically to encourage experimentation with the circuit. It wasn't exclusively panned as an idea, but categorically rejected by those most interested in the project. Given that I have ZERO commercial interest in the project, or the sale of the chassis, it's not that my ego was hurt. see second part of this.
7a) I was, however, extremely disappointed that... ONCE AGAIN... even for home, personal use, "cloning" has such a goddamned high priority around here. It doesn't promote learning, understanding, evolution, and it doesn't sharpen one's amp skills. There may be some discussion of starting with a clone and tweaking to taste, but that's still pretty weak. Most of the "it's no longer a clone" tweaks that apply still render things a massive, massive, unoriginal clone in my mind. It's not respectable in other fields. In fact, in other industries it is not only likened to, but actually contributes to, terrorist causes. Crafting visual and electrical replicas of long-gone products as a tribute? Yeah, okay, that might get a pass... ish. But really, WHY are you cloning? (the you being hypothetical and not directed at any one person).
VIII) Even though this wasn't intended to be directly to/at Hogy, the issues are directly related to what came up in this thread, and I'm sure he will, and can, take it as a personal attack. It's not personal, but speaking to industry standards applicable to many builders, some on this board, some not. If people build a clone, and throw their own label on it, throw a slightly different superficial external aesthetic twist to make it LOOK different-- in my eyes? It's still a clone.
8a) I absolutely ADMIRE AND RESPECT the decision to license the 'Wreck circuits from Ken in his life and continuing to his family after it by the builder (or builders) who have done so.
8.5) BUT-- Being the best of a breed which is, by default, horribly unethical doesn't necessarily command the highest respect. Some respect? absolutely. Exactly as much as is actually warranted. If actual IP output extends to a triangle on a box--I've literally seen kindergarteners draw that. I have a really, really hard time saying there was any appreciable or higher intellectual work performed. Beethoven ripped it up as a child prodigy. he did not scribble a triangle on a box and get called a prodigy for it.
9) The industry as a whole deserves better. It won't deliver. This board can be better. The members here can be better. This includes commercial builders (and I mean anyone building an amp and selling it at all.) We should hold ourselves to a higher standard. If you've made money oroducing a knock-off, or replica, of someone else's circuit, you're a cloner. It may be legally permissible, but it requires some serious mental acrobatics to call it ethical-- and more to the point, ethical ENOUGH to feel you've got a leg to stand on in a discussion of best ethical practices. (see original comment about separating legality from morality from ethics-beyond-is-law-followed).
As a final thought, and challenge-- as long as commercial builders are still producing clones (not necessarily directed at the amp or mfg this sprung up about), I encourage people to continue ripping off their work. Just understand it's one criminal ripping off another criminal. There ain't no honor among thieves.
I challenge EVERYONE, however, to move beyond cloning. There's zero obligation to (see above paragraph), for now... and there never will be, until people actually start doing it en masse.
When someone DOES offer up something that is original, that warrants an ETHICAL claim of IP (even if the legality hasn't been filed), please people--respect it. If you want to use it, license it. At least open that line of dialogue even if the information was opened up in a "public discussion". Licensing good ideas is more likely to CREATE more good ideas-- there's finally an incentive.
I've had my ideas (from little ones to big ones) ripped off and monetized by others from amateurs to corporate manufacturers. It sucks. The response is "gee, you shouldn't have shared it if you expected anyone to respect it"--and while that may "legally" be the case... it's a terrible standard to live by.
The status quo, and you have permission to keep on quo-ing.
Be better, not because you have to be, because you know you should be.
Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
I haven't seen a true clone on Ampgarage yet, every builder has injected their own flavors of caps, resistors, wires, etc.
I seriously doubt any sales have ever been affected by us DIY amp builders.
My experience has been people are cheap they buy crap from China and Ceriatone surely has already seen the Asteroid and other Komet schematics.
People want amps that have brand names on them, the ones they read about on the many forums like TGP. Why because of status, brand name recognition and eventually those dumb shits sell it on Craig's list, Reverb.com or ebay.
Mark
I seriously doubt any sales have ever been affected by us DIY amp builders.
My experience has been people are cheap they buy crap from China and Ceriatone surely has already seen the Asteroid and other Komet schematics.
People want amps that have brand names on them, the ones they read about on the many forums like TGP. Why because of status, brand name recognition and eventually those dumb shits sell it on Craig's list, Reverb.com or ebay.
Mark
Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
Too many things to even think of. Many clone or "something like" amps are usually copies of amps that are out of production, or rare, and too expensive for most musicians, and no one is building them. They only made a few. You see this in pedals or guitars to whatever. Or as Marshall did to save on duty taxes on imported fenders, they somewhat copied the bassman.
Like Mark mentioned, A true clone would be every single part would be exact, the only thing different would be the person that actually built it. Which, in many ways is impossible for some. Something along the lines of a Wreck,if Ken did not build or OK it, it wasn't a Trainwreck.
Now "original design" hmmm, Just my thoughts, if you look at most amps, your going to see them use the same preamp or PI as used in many other amps. A long list of names of amps. break down the circuits, and you'll see.. hey that is the same circuit used in XX amp. Now is it an all original design? If you go by that, then most every amp has something copied.
There are a few that have some parts or circuits a bit different. But where do you draw a line of how much is copied?
If xx amps used Teflon wire, and the real amp didn't, is that amp still a clone. Will it sound different?
And even building a clone, some find ways of maybe improving something, or finding a design flaw. You never know till you build one that is more like an original.
Now if Fender, Marshall, Soldano, Dumble, Trainwreck, and the list would go on and on, use the same PI, copied and passed around.
Would that make them not "all original" ? Or does it fall to what parts like resistors,wire or caps or tubes? If it was PTP or PCB ?
Ken did give out a lot of amp circuit and mod info in the wreck pages. And many of those great things are used but rarely mention or give credit to him. Or someone changes or adds a small thing to them, then they slap their name to it.
Many clone or "something like" amps are usually copies of amps that are out of production, or rare, and too expensive for most musicians, and no one is building them. They only made a few. You see this in pedals or guitars to whatever. Or as Marshall did to save on duty taxes on imported fenders, they somewhat copied the bassman.Like Mark mentioned, A true clone would be every single part would be exact, the only thing different would be the person that actually built it. Which, in many ways is impossible for some. Something along the lines of a Wreck,if Ken did not build or OK it, it wasn't a Trainwreck.
Now "original design" hmmm, Just my thoughts, if you look at most amps, your going to see them use the same preamp or PI as used in many other amps. A long list of names of amps. break down the circuits, and you'll see.. hey that is the same circuit used in XX amp. Now is it an all original design? If you go by that, then most every amp has something copied.
There are a few that have some parts or circuits a bit different. But where do you draw a line of how much is copied?
If xx amps used Teflon wire, and the real amp didn't, is that amp still a clone. Will it sound different?
And even building a clone, some find ways of maybe improving something, or finding a design flaw. You never know till you build one that is more like an original.
Now if Fender, Marshall, Soldano, Dumble, Trainwreck, and the list would go on and on, use the same PI, copied and passed around.
Would that make them not "all original" ? Or does it fall to what parts like resistors,wire or caps or tubes? If it was PTP or PCB ?
Ken did give out a lot of amp circuit and mod info in the wreck pages. And many of those great things are used but rarely mention or give credit to him. Or someone changes or adds a small thing to them, then they slap their name to it.
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CircuitButcher
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:35 pm
Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
We stand on each others shoulders.
Humanities achievements are the result of exploring and socializing ideas.
Members of the forum, by their actions, enjoy cooperation and sharing - this is not an exclusive club, it is a community.
When ethics are extended beyond natural law, the application becomes a divisive tool of restriction, especially when profit is involved.
Maybe we have reached the maturity as a civilization to reconsider property and ownership, and become stewards of the planet and well being at large.
The moment is ripe to join hands and minds in openness.
Humanities achievements are the result of exploring and socializing ideas.
Members of the forum, by their actions, enjoy cooperation and sharing - this is not an exclusive club, it is a community.
When ethics are extended beyond natural law, the application becomes a divisive tool of restriction, especially when profit is involved.
Maybe we have reached the maturity as a civilization to reconsider property and ownership, and become stewards of the planet and well being at large.
The moment is ripe to join hands and minds in openness.
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JazzGuitarGimp
- Posts: 2355
- Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:54 pm
- Location: Northern CA
Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
Wow, this is starting to get interesting! I am dumbfounded by those here who believe and/or have stated that using s different brand or resistors means you're not cloning! Really?! RESLLY?! Folks, if you build an amp from a schematic of someon elses' design (such as Fender, Dumble), then you are CLONING ! It doesn't matter if you use a different brand of resistor, capacitor, wire, tube sockets, or ANYTHING! It doesn't even matter if you change the value of every part in the design! If you wire a circuit per the 6G6B schematic or ODS, you have indeed built a clone! If the topology of the circuit of your build is the same as the topology of the donor, then it's a clone...
Okay, now stepping down off my soapbox.....
Okay, now stepping down off my soapbox.....
Lou Rossi Designs
Printed Circuit Design & Layout,
and Schematic Capture
Printed Circuit Design & Layout,
and Schematic Capture
Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
I don't really believe copying a circuit is ever immoral in the tube world it all been done its obsolete technology.. however the layout belongs to the person that designed it.
I can see hogy getting bent out of shape about the songwriter. I don't blame him.
I don't know why somebody would want to clone one much less spend thousands on one. Maybe it has some magical quality that you have to hear in person that doesn't translate in the demos .
The blank chassis thing was just weak dude. that's the nicest way I can say it.
I can see hogy getting bent out of shape about the songwriter. I don't blame him.
I don't know why somebody would want to clone one much less spend thousands on one. Maybe it has some magical quality that you have to hear in person that doesn't translate in the demos .
The blank chassis thing was just weak dude. that's the nicest way I can say it.
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Littlewyan
- Posts: 1917
- Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:50 pm
- Location: UK
Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
I wouldn't say just using the same circuit topology is cloning. If we go by that rule then we will run out of 'unique' designs very quickly, in fact we already have! I don't think we need to establish rules when it comes to cloning, just common sense. If your amp looks the same as a Komet 60, has the same circuit/layout as a Komet 60 then yes it is a clone. However if its in a different headcab and the circuit had been tweaked then I wouldn't call it a clone. I find it hard to call my Express a clone as its in a Marshall Chassis and Headcab. Same circuit but completely different layout.
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JazzGuitarGimp
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- Location: Northern CA
Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
Don't misunderstand me: I am not making a moral judgement one way or the other here. But uf you're using the same circuit topology, then you're building a clone - I don't care if you build it into an industrial soup can. Just my take on it.
Lou Rossi Designs
Printed Circuit Design & Layout,
and Schematic Capture
Printed Circuit Design & Layout,
and Schematic Capture
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Littlewyan
- Posts: 1917
- Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:50 pm
- Location: UK
Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
So when you say circuit topology I'm guessing you mean say how the pre amp is laid out, as in Gain Stage - Tone Stack - Gain Stage - Gain Stage. Is that what you mean?
Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
You know imrespeect your opinion a lot. In that case everything is a clone a rocket is a clone of a bassman pre with some values changed. With a vox outpiut.Its all been done a long time ago . express black faceJazzGuitarGimp wrote:Don't misunderstand me: I am not making a moral judgement one way or the other here. But uf you're using the same circuit topology, then you're building a clone - I don't care if you build it into an industrial soup can. Just my take on it.
fender clone with an extra gain stage. Marshall output .
So I clone two different amps and combine them into one its not a clone then.
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statorvane
- Posts: 557
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- Location: Upstate New York
Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
Okay, I don't get it. What exactly are you paying royalties for? Are the royalties to use the Komet and/or Songwriter name, schematic, layout? Just curious since there are legal means to protect these (trademark, patents, copyrights, etc.). I am thinking you may not need to pay these royalties (legally anyway), if these items are not protected.Komet pays royalties to Ken's family for every Songwriter built.
I hang out on ReRanch forum a lot. There are several threads there where people will take an Epiphone (or other off-shore electric) refinish it with a Gibson name on it - very nicely done, hard to tell from the original (Les Paul, ES-335, etc.). Personally I find this abhorrent, as much as someone trying to pass off a clone as a Komet product. I certainly think that would no longer be a clone, rather a forgery. I don't think that is the activity going on here, and certainly would not be tolerated.
Also, the discussion of this disagreement has been much more professional and non-demeaning than any similar thread I have read on any forum, thanks to the moderators and members here.
Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
JazzGuitarGimp wrote:Wow, this is starting to get interesting! I am dumbfounded by those here who believe and/or have stated that using s different brand or resistors means you're not cloning! Really?! RESLLY?! Folks, if you build an amp from a schematic of someon elses' design (such as Fender, Dumble), then you are CLONING ! It doesn't matter if you use a different brand of resistor, capacitor, wire, tube sockets, or ANYTHING! It doesn't even matter if you change the value of every part in the design! If you wire a circuit per the 6G6B schematic or ODS, you have indeed built a clone! If the topology of the circuit of your build is the same as the topology of the donor, then it's a clone...
Okay, now stepping down off my soapbox.....
Here we go again...what exactly is a "clone" was flogged to death to 3-4 years ago in the Dumble section.
TM
Re: Songwriter Group Build -- Not Gonna Happen
That may well be, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess it was mostly debated by people performing great mental acrobatics who were producing clones and really didn't want to admit it--whether for issues of pride, ignorance, or for fear of legal retaliation.ToneMerc wrote:Here we go again...what exactly is a "clone" was flogged to death to 3-4 years ago in the Dumble section.
TM