Express and Liverpool Fizz

Express, Liverpool, Rocket, Dirty Little Monster, etc.

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Littlewyan
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by Littlewyan »

Don't give up mate. Make a recording and post some gut shots.

We'll get there :)
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bcmatt
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by bcmatt »

Littlewyan wrote:Don't give up mate. Make a recording and post some gut shots.

We'll get there :)
I posted the gut shots, did you see them?
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Littlewyan
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by Littlewyan »

Ah sorry, I wasn't logged in when I viewed your post so the images didn't show up. Ah you have VVR. Are you using it? If so have you got an attenuator you can try instead?
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bcmatt
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by bcmatt »

Littlewyan wrote:Ah sorry, I wasn't logged in when I viewed your post so the images didn't show up. Ah you have VVR. Are you using it? If so have you got an attenuator you can try instead?
Yup, I can use my Badcat Unleash. I can dial it up after I try throwing these dudes in:
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Littlewyan
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by Littlewyan »

I've never used VVR or a PPIMV in an Express so could very well be that. See how it sounds with the BadCat and try not to attenuate it too much. Obviously attenuate it enough to save your ears and neighbours though :P. But the more you attenuate it the more it will affect the tone.

I've never used a BadCat so can't comment on how they are at high attenuation levels.
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bcmatt
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by bcmatt »

At full Voltage and just using the Badcat (at various levels), I still get the fizz to varying degrees. I had played the amp straight and normal this morning as well (no Voltage reduction or attenuation) and still had the fizz.

The Mullards sound decent, but don't do anything about this fizziness... So they will probably go back to the old Traynor they belong to.

I will bring home a Zoom recorder tomorrow from work so that I can capture the sound of these amps and you guys can actually weigh in on what you think it sounds like.

I'm taking a break for the day now.
My upcoming things I may try, if nothing strikes anyone:

Wait for the 6PS Caps.
Replace Silver mica caps with ceramic disc caps.
Completely remove the VVRs from the circuits.
Try out some caps in parallel with some plate load resisters
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Littlewyan
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by Littlewyan »

If you changed to Mallory 150s and didn't hear any difference I don't think you'll hear any difference going to the 6PS Caps.

Replacing silver micas with ceramics is a bad move.

Could try removing VVR but people have had good success with this in the Express circuit.

There is no need for plate load resistors!!!!! Sorry but I hate using these :P.

Record the fizzyness mate and we'll go from there.

By the way, how do you set the tone controls on the amp? Do you always have the bright cap on?

Also one thing I will say is those are quite cramped amps. My Express amp is very spread out as its in a Marshall Chassis and I still get some feedback if I turn all controls to 10 with the amp plugged directly into the speaker. This is with no guitar plugged in by the way! Its possible you have some oscillation going on. What happens if you plug the amp directly into the speaker, no VVR or PPIMV and turn all controls to 10? Do it slowly mind as the loud feedback can be deafening. Maybe stick some pillows in front of the speaker cab to protect you a bit and don't plug the guitar in.
Last edited by Littlewyan on Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Theashe
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by Theashe »

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread, because it sounds very similar to the problem I'm having with a non-Trainwreck amp. I too would like to hear a sound clip. If you get it sorted, please come back to post what the cause of the problem was.

Edit:

Have you read these posts?
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t27536-4/#post243516
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t27536/#post239428
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bcmatt
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by bcmatt »

Here is a quick recording, trying to emphasize the fizz. Remember, this is after the tube rolling. It gets buried sort of in chords, but letting a note ring out will make it more obvious. I might have turned down the input sensitivity too much so you probably have to crank this through some headphones.

I was really trying to rush this because the baby was about to be put to bed. If you hear nothing and think I am crazy, just give me another chance to record something in the morning.
EDIT: I DELETED THIS CLIP BECAUSE I UPLOADED OTHERS THAT ILLUSTRATE BETTER FURTHER DOWN.

In other tests, If I turn off VVR and crank every knob with no guitar plugged in, I can get the amp to ring out as the treble knob is turned all the way up.
Here is a cell phone video of me doing that ... in the dark
:shock: :shock: :shock: :
https://youtu.be/JHi-vNC5K58
Last edited by bcmatt on Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Littlewyan
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by Littlewyan »

The oscillation occurs at the same point as my amp. With everything on 10, soon as the treble gets past 3o clock its whistle time.

I have to be honest I can't hear much fizz. Not loads anyway. Were you using the neck pickup or both pickups in that clip?
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bcmatt
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by bcmatt »

Littlewyan wrote:The oscillation occurs at the same point as my amp. With everything on 10, soon as the treble gets past 3o clock its whistle time.
So, perhaps I should be chop-sticking around first... trying to eliminate this oscillation? Did you resolve yours?

OK, so I have some better clips of my fizz. I need to apologize for 2 things first off.
a) My playing: I don't claim to be amazing at guitar, but please don't get distracted by my playing this concentrating more on highlighting a bad sizzle sound than playing anything good, unique, etc...
b) The volumes of the clips: I tied to set the recorder's input sensitivity to be able to capture dual volumes in each clip... I may have erred on the side of making much of the clip volumes too low. Sorry, I hope you can boost enough to hear what what are looking for.

With that out of the way, there are 4 clips all done with my strat (part with middle pickup and part with the neck pickup in each clip).

1st we have the Liverpool straight into the cab of Creambacks with the Voltage all the way up... then I turn down the VVR part way through.

2nd Clip is the Express straight into the cab of Creambacks with the Voltage all the way up... then I turn down the VVR part way through.

3rd Clip is the Liverpool on full voltage going through the Badcat Unleash. I turn up the Unleash for more volume part way through.

4th Clip is the Express on full voltage going through the Badcat Unleash. I turn up the Unleash for more volume part way through.

My analysis:
So, I hear the fizz every single time, but it seems that the lower the volume is, the more it is emphasized... Almost like the fizziness stayed the same volume as the distorted notes get louder. So, full voltage directly to the cab seemed pretty much unnoticeable because of the sheer deafening volume. This was the loudest. The unleash seemed to emphasize the fizz more because both volumes used with the unleash were lower than the full unaltered clip. The Voltage down clips seemed to have the most fizz even though they were about the same volume (in the room) as the quieter Unleash clips.

I don't think this is necessarily anything bad about the VVR; it is effectively bringing the volume down, but as the voltage goes down, I always find it effects the gain slightly causing it to seem like the gain has turned up. I often find that turning up the VVR reduces the gain and I have to also tweak the gain to compensate. Therefore, we notice the most fizz because it is directly related to gain.

One's first instinct may be to say that the fizz is the fault of the speakers or cab.... that they have an inherent fizzy quality that gets hidden as you blast them harder. However, I think it is actually the other way around...my two amps have a fizzy nature that I have tried to mask with speaker choice and that Creambacks are some that get good at smoothing it the more you push them. I recall other speakers that were much more unbearable in the fizz department. Just to check this, have tried my ET65 cab in the last couple days to make sure they are also fizzing.
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JazzGuitarGimp
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by JazzGuitarGimp »

I have a few ideas:

One of these amps is fixed bias, while the other is self bias, is that correct? What is your idle plate dissipation in each case, and what is the output tube type in each case? I'm wondering if the amps may be biased too cold, and you are hearing crossover distortion.

And are you sure your speakers are in good repair and mounted firmly to the baffle? I'm wondering if you might be hearing a slight voice coil rub or perhaps something in the room or about the speaker cabinet is rattling. If the bad cat has a line out, have you tried making a direct recording from the line out to the line in of your recorder, thus eliminating the microphone, speakers and room from the equation?
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bcmatt
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by bcmatt »

JazzGuitarGimp wrote: One of these amps is fixed bias, while the other is self bias, is that correct? What is your idle plate dissipation in each case, and what is the output tube type in each case? I'm wondering if the amps may be biased too cold, and you are hearing crossover distortion.
Yes, the Liverpool is Cathode biased. I have been biasing the Express at about 60%. The plate Voltage was about 390 Volts when I threw the Mullards in a couple days ago. I can try at 70% when I throw the JJs back in right away.

JazzGuitarGimp wrote: And are you sure your speakers are in good repair and mounted firmly to the baffle? I'm wondering if you might be hearing a slight voice coil rub or perhaps something in the room or about the speaker cabinet is rattling. If the bad cat has a line out, have you tried making a direct recording from the line out to the line in of your recorder, thus eliminating the microphone, speakers and room from the equation?
Yes, the Unleash has a line out. I will try that out right away since I can even do it while the baby is asleep.
I did notice something in the cab recently and tightened every screw... but I remember figuring it was the casters.... I will pop those off too.... yikes! if that's it I'll feel like an idiot... because the other cab I also test with has the same casters!
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bcmatt
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by bcmatt »

The direct out from the Bad Cat is super fizzy... like the fizziest piece of fuzzy crap in the world. I always assumed that any distorted amp will sound like that without some sort of speaker emulation... am I wrong? I should try some other amps...
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bcmatt
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by bcmatt »

OK, I don't think the line out thing will tell us anything without some sort of speaker emulation.
I just tried my 5E3 into the BadCat and Direct out to an active speaker. It does exactly the same fizzy garbage. My 5e3 also has a variable line out, so I sent that straight to the speaker as well to rule out problems with the BAdCat... still fizzy. which leads me to wonder why anyone bothers with a line out anyways... unless one is trying to Herzog into something else.

OK, now I am really bewildered/dissillusioned. If we are always relying on guitar speakers to smooth out all the fizz from every single overdriven tube amp, doesn't that just mean any bit of fizz ever coming through should be addressed at the speaker? The fizz I am hearing just seems to be a tiny fraction of the fizz that every amp sends to the speaker anyways when it starts to distort.

Also, I have put the JJ EL34s back in and biased them at 70%.
It still did not eliminate the fizz. I think some further chopsticking will now be necessary. The little bit I didjust now has seemed to create some squeeling. Oops!
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