Express and Liverpool Fizz

Express, Liverpool, Rocket, Dirty Little Monster, etc.

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bcmatt
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Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by bcmatt »

I built an Express and a Liverpool back in 2009. The Express was originally for a friend but he sold it back to me about a year an a half ago when he needed some cash.

Both amps have VVR, used 716p series preamp caps, and both have a fizzy distortion when gained up. There is a nice distortion with fizz on on top. Both the amps are beautiful sounding otherwise and have no noise or hum issues at all. They are very quiet. I had previously chop-sticked around to get them silent, but this high-gain extra fizz is very un-musical and annoying.

With my Liverpool that I used as my main amp for years, I would usually run the gain cleaner around 9 o'clock, use a very specific speakers that minimized the fizz, as well as for a time used a 5751 in V1, to avoid the fizz. I was not going for as much of the clean to mean on the guitar volume. I would max out the Strat volume and tone and just use pick and strum sensitivity to go from clean to aggressive crunch. I even use the 5.2K tap on the OT for a bit more of a cleany barky sound.

However, in recent years I've gone back to wanting to use the TWs in the more classic clean to mean format, installed historic pots and carefully selected old caps in my humbucker and P90 guitars, gone back to 12ax7s, 6.6K OT, etc.... but that fizz on top of that mean sound is a huge turn off...
and that express would be so awesome without it.

The speakers that I would try to use to minimize that fizz even seem pretty helpless... WGS ET65... WGS Retro 30.... Celestion 65M Creambacks...

Anyways, I always assumed I needed to go back to more tube rolling and chop-sticking, but with already dead quiet amps and otherwise pleasing tones, is this still the best approach?

I've been reading other threads about small bypass caps on the plate load resisters.... maybe this is an appropriate thing to try in this case?
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Littlewyan
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by Littlewyan »

You don't need plate bypass caps or anything with these amps.

What brand of valves are you using? Preamp and Poweramp.

Have you tried the 6PS caps instead of the 716p? Made a big difference for me. I started with the 715 caps.
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bcmatt
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by bcmatt »

Littlewyan wrote:You don't need plate bypass caps or anything with these amps.

What brand of valves are you using? Preamp and Poweramp.

Have you tried the 6PS caps instead of the 716p? Made a big difference for me. I started with the 715 caps.
I haven't tried the 6PS caps. I wish I went that way originally. I will totally make an order to replace them all with 6PS from AES. It's worth a try, and more accurate to the original (polyester instead of Polypropelene).

For tubes, I currently have JJ power tubes in both amps.
I do have a perfect matched quad of original British Mullard 6CA7s that I'm willing to try a pair of in the express for the purpose of experimenting.
All the preamp tubes are a random assortment based on earlier rolling and stealing from all my other amps... I could try that process over too...

So you think tube rolling again and replacing with 6PS is a better place to start?
Synchu
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by Synchu »

Changing caps is a good move, I would, however, try to play with the tubes first.
I have very good experience with EHs 6CA7 in my K60 build. Tung sol reissues in the pre and a Sovtek LPS in the PI. Sounds great, no fizz at any level.
Never managed to bond with JJs, besides some ECC803 gold pins, I think, which I used in an amp (forgot which one, though :)), but they sounded quite good.
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Littlewyan
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by Littlewyan »

I've never tried the JJ EL34s so can't comment. Try the 6CA7s first as thats the cheapest option! See if you lose the fizz. Reason I ask about pre amp valves is I know the chinese 12AX7s are known for being fizzy, although I've not tried any myself. I use Tung Sol 12AX7s in V1 and V3 and a JJ ECC83 MG in V2.

I must admit I tried a Sovtek 12AX7LPS and the one I have is very harsh. Haven't been able to use it in any amps at all. Mine might be a duff though. If I bought another I bet it'd sound different.
Sone Aura
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Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by Sone Aura »

Caps are cheaper than tubes, and Ken never used polypropylene caps. I am one of those snobs with a shelf filled with real UK, Holland, West German, East German, Czechoslovakian, & Japanese made EL34s. A 6CA7 is going to sound more 6L6ish. Well, a real Sylvania 6CA7 will. Try the PS 225 series orange drops, Mallory 150s, Vishay PS, or other polyester caps. I think Ken used Polyethylene Tarathalate (Mylar) caps. I forget what series they were. 417, or something like that, and they were made by Sprague. CDE owns the Orange Drop line now. Maybe try the JJ long plate ECC83. The short plates are good too. Electroharmonix 12AX7A are not too bad either. The Chinese 12AX7B is the cheapest tube I use. They are very gainy, and they can be fizzy. New Sensor's Tung Sol 12AX7 is one I like too. They are lower in gain, and have a nice tone. I like the Winged C EL34. I think I would ditch the 716 caps first, and then start rolling tubes. The Chinese power tubes are not that bad. I can't really say, how much or how little I pay for the 12AX7Bs, but they are really cheap. If you used those Chinese 12AX7Bs, do try something else. Glad to be back! 8)
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Littlewyan
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by Littlewyan »

In this instance though he has a spare set of different valves he can try, so probably best to try them first instead of buying stuff in. I know what you mean though, would be good to get those caps swapped but hey if he likes the amp with the 6ca7s then leave the caps in and be done with it.

6PS are closest sounding to the originals, apparently, I guess the 225 caps will pretty much be the same.
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Colossal
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by Colossal »

Sone Aura wrote:Caps are cheaper than tubes, and Ken never used polypropylene caps.
The 0.047uF output coupling caps in the Rocket were polypropylene.
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bcmatt
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by bcmatt »

I ordered the 6PS caps last night. I'll always wonder what I'm missing if I never try them. I was ordering parts anyways for an amp I plan to convert to an SSS (different thread).

Anyways, if I get impatient, I'll try out the vintage Mullards. They aren't exactly extras. They are in another amp, and I would have to either run it on just 2 valves or buy a whole other quad of EL34s for it... so it's not a perfect resolution, but I use the Express more often and if it makes it awesome, I would consider the swap.
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by geetarpicker »

Try a 40' guitar cable made with Canare GS6 wire!

You would think you could simulate this by adding a small cap (of the right value) after a short cord, or at the amp input itself. That said I tried it though and it just didn't sound as good. I think there is more going on than just capacitance in a longer cable that can improve the tone if you work with it. Santana and Brian Setzer are known to use 50' Carare cables in front of their amps, so it's not just a Trainwreck thing.
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rooster
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by rooster »

I have the original Sprague PVC caps in sets if you're interested. Like you I one day decided to just get everything right that I could and I'm really glad I did.

One thing in particular that came up for me was the diode strings on the power tubes. I was hearing a fizz and I disconnected them: fizz gone. I know these are a Ken thing and they are in the originals but I don't use them anymore. I suggest you try disconnecting one end on each of them and see what you end up with. If it sounds the same, reconnect the disconnected ends and move on.
Most people stall out when fixing a mistake that they've made. Why?
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bcmatt
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by bcmatt »

rooster wrote:I have the original Sprague PVC caps in sets if you're interested. Like you I one day decided to just get everything right that I could and I'm really glad I did.

One thing in particular that came up for me was the diode strings on the power tubes. I was hearing a fizz and I disconnected them: fizz gone. I know these are a Ken thing and they are in the originals but I don't use them anymore. I suggest you try disconnecting one end on each of them and see what you end up with. If it sounds the same, reconnect the disconnected ends and move on.
Thanks Rooster. I actually ordered all the 6PS caps I need (along with all the parts for my SSS conversion) on Monday. They will arrive in Sumas, Washington next week some time and the following week, I will fly to Abbotsford and drive over the border to retrieve them. See what Canadians do to save a little on shipping??! Every bit helps after you consider the value of our dollar.

Because I was impatient, I swapped in Mallary 150s that I actually already had last night to see if they would do the trick.... seeing as they are also polyester. I don't think they made a difference really at all.

I am tempted to try the diodes too, but what discourages me from try that is the fact that my Liverpool (with no protection diodes) does the same thing. This was also the reason I have been skeptical of many Express-specific fixes.

Let me try better to describe the sound... (I promise soon to actually record it with a decent recorder):
When I have the amp volume up around half and then crank the guitar volume, the distortion sound has an extra raspiness to it. like the sound of a sink as it finishes draining :roll: when the last bit of water is being sucked down with some air. In the midst of heavy chording, it isn't necessarily obvious, but single note leads (like up the neck on the G and B strings) come off not nearly as smooth sounding as I imagine they should and make it even more obvious). The fact that it happens in different speakers and cabs the same way makes me think it is something common to both amps like their preamp cap types.

This morning I also tried cigaring together a few 20' cables (I don't have any quick or easy access to Canare GS6 cable). I think that this actually improved the managing of the brightness while getting to use the gain benefits of the bright switch how I like, but I it didn't resolve this raspy overtone... I will likely continue to patch together long cables for the tone improvement, but I'm still dealing with my original problem.

My next step will be some hardcore tube-rolling. All my amps around the house are pitching to give the Express first choice of any 12ax7s (or the 3 5751s). Rolling will commence as soon as the baby awakes from his current nap...

On another note, as a fun little little pop-quiz:
Who can tell me from this photo which two 6CA7s you would pull to run this amp at half power?

OK, babies awake. Time to play some loud guitar and roll 12ax7s!
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Littlewyan
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by Littlewyan »

What speakers have you tried?

Have you got photos of the guts of each amp?
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bcmatt
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by bcmatt »

Littlewyan wrote:What speakers have you tried?

Have you got photos of the guts of each amp?
Sure, here they are.

I've been using a couple different open backed 2x12 cabs. One has Celestion G12M65 Creambacks, and the other has WGS ET65s.

I've spent the last couple hours rolling preamp tubes for V1. I'm not actually noticing huge differences... even with the 5751s. The Tung-Sols seemed to make the biggest difference... they seemed to diminish the effect the most... and (not coincidentally) I think reduced the gain the most.

After rolling trough every tube in V1, my patience got thin and I settled (probably too) quickly on V2 and V3 because the differences seemed much less distinguishable.
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bcmatt
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Re: Express and Liverpool Fizz

Post by bcmatt »

I still feel like an idiot trying to describe the sound.. words are misleading... and I honestly think I am starting to go crazy.

I actually think it is similar to the hair you hear on Glen's notes when he really lets it loose in this old video:
https://youtu.be/Y2_12Ler9B8

Of course, I am getting it earlier when the guitar is not singing nearly to that level. Glen is also letting that guitar really sing out lead lines many times without that hairiness on the note. I feel like in order to get rid of the hair, I give up all the sustain and Glen makes no such sacrifice. Now, maybe I just need to come back to the real world; I will never be able to come remotely close to playing like Glen and building like Ken, nor will I ever have a 59 Les Paul or Vintage Greenbacks. I'm not exactly expecting to get his tones, but I still suspect that when I make a recording, you'll probably agree I should be getting closer than I am.
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