express build thoughts/conclusions

Express, Liverpool, Rocket, Dirty Little Monster, etc.

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norburybrook
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express build thoughts/conclusions

Post by norburybrook »

I've recently built my first express and wanted to air some thoughts on the whole 'express' thing.

As usual I did a lot of reading before I set about building. There seemed to be a lot of quite specific things required to get the 'express' thing right. The right transformers, the right caps, resistors, solid wire, lead dress, special valves, it seemed from my research the express was a difficult amp to get right and that it was prone to oscillation and wayward behaviour if not built correctly.

so what did I do?

well:


I used Sozo caps instead of orange drops,

I used a wrongly spec'd Marshall 50w OT instead of the 6.6K pacific,

I mounted them in the wrong place,

I used stranded cable and paid no attention to the correct lead dress, I just wired as I saw fit,

Used new JJ valves throughout,

what did I end up with.....


an amazing sounding amp that sounds exactly like this one

https://youtu.be/Uc3Xi6aAG80

it behaves the same with my 50's spec'd les Paul.

So my conclusion is;

Don't get too worked up about all this stuff, really, it might make 0.0001% difference in the end . Just build and try stuff out, my last Dumble build was cobbled together from random parts and a donor peavey combo amp.....it sounded fantastic, it sold to someone immediately and is in their studio as we speak waiting for Peter Frampton of all people to put some guitar down.

Take care of safety issues obviously, but there's a lot of leeway with this stuff.

happy building

Marcus
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pompeiisneaks
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Re: express build thoughts/conclusions

Post by pompeiisneaks »

I can't agree more, I built my liverpool with some leftover AC30 transformers, used a weird turret board layout that was a mashup mess from the old hoffman AC30 this came from, and used some off the shelf yellow paper types from CEDist, not even brand name ones like yours. I think it sounds outstanding myself, but maybe I'm crazy :)

Ultimately I'm one of those rebels that builds old schematics on new components. I do think I'll probably mostly stick to either 715P or the like instead of the cheaper xicon's and I'm sworn on the CF resistors now, although I've tried a few Dale RN65's with good success as well, and will think of those also. I'm sure I don't want crap components, but mostly I think it's about intelligent lead dress, intelligent layout, and the other things fall into place.

Now someone can berate me for being insane :)

~Phil
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xtian
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Re: express build thoughts/conclusions

Post by xtian »

Totally agree. Well, done, Marcus!
I build and repair tube amps. http://amps.monkeymatic.com
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martin manning
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Re: express build thoughts/conclusions

Post by martin manning »

Marcus Cliffe, Mythbuster!
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norburybrook
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Re: express build thoughts/conclusions

Post by norburybrook »

martin manning wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:44 am Marcus Cliffe, Mythbuster!

Hmm..... I could see me upsetting people with that TAG (sic) :D

what's great about this is, with the help of you guys here I now feel confident in allowing changes to things I would have sweated over in the past, like transformer positions, types of caps, even voltages (as long as they're not too high for a valve). I realise tube amps are incredibly forgiving , it actually takes quite a lot to blow one up or damage a transformer/valve even. I shorted the heaters and a 500v output tube pin accidentally earlier in the year...that was quite spectacular....all it did was blow the 100R center tap fuses, valves were fine.

So my post was to tell people not to get obsessed over parts, just use good quality ones if you can.

...build...play....once you're playing in a real situation you wont hear those minute differences anyway and your sound will change every night depending on the venue/Stage.

I do wonder though if I'm learning a craft that will die as more and more people go to Fractal/kemper/helix etc.............that's another thread though.

thanks.... and good night from me ................I'm here all week, try the Veal.....:D


M
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martin manning
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Re: express build thoughts/conclusions

Post by martin manning »

There are some rules that must be followed for safety and durability, but there is indeed a lot of flexibility. Making a circuit sound a certain way is mostly up to the component values, including where the load lines are placed. There are differences in the sound quality of output transformers, tubes, and to a lesser extent capacitors, but I believe it is all due to the materials used and the construction. If you pay attention to those elements when selecting components you won't be far off. I'm not convinced that resistors contribute much of anything to sound quality. Still, there are variations in components due to manufacturing tolerances that will result in two completed amps using the same bill of materials sounding different. Time in use also seems to be a factor, and some change in sound quality is often observed after a few hours. As a result of these variations I suspect that when claims are made with respect to certain components, the the effect is often wrongly attributed. Regarding you efforts, recycling and adapting components is fun, and requires knowledge beyond following an existing schematic and layout, so you should be proud of your successes.
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M Fowler
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Re: express build thoughts/conclusions

Post by M Fowler »

I built two Express combos knobs up 1-12" Marshall style.

They both use low voltage JTM45 style PT's 600vct and 6k open frame tweed type OT's.

Thos combos rock out in weekend gigging so yes one does not have to go traditional Trainwreck to get great tone.

Great job on your build.

Mark
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Re: express build thoughts/conclusions

Post by andresound »

norburybrook wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:30 pm I've recently built my first express and wanted to air some thoughts on the whole 'express' thing.

As usual I did a lot of reading before I set about building. There seemed to be a lot of quite specific things required to get the 'express' thing right. The right transformers, the right caps, resistors, solid wire, lead dress, special valves, it seemed from my research the express was a difficult amp to get right and that it was prone to oscillation and wayward behaviour if not built correctly.

so what did I do?

well:


I used Sozo caps instead of orange drops,

I used a wrongly spec'd Marshall 50w OT instead of the 6.6K pacific,

I mounted them in the wrong place,

I used stranded cable and paid no attention to the correct lead dress, I just wired as I saw fit,

Used new JJ valves throughout,

what did I end up with.....


an amazing sounding amp that sounds exactly like this one

https://youtu.be/Uc3Xi6aAG80

it behaves the same with my 50's spec'd les Paul.

So my conclusion is;

Don't get too worked up about all this stuff, really, it might make 0.0001% difference in the end . Just build and try stuff out, my last Dumble build was cobbled together from random parts and a donor peavey combo amp.....it sounded fantastic, it sold to someone immediately and is in their studio as we speak waiting for Peter Frampton of all people to put some guitar down.

Take care of safety issues obviously, but there's a lot of leeway with this stuff.

happy building

Marcus
Clips please... otherwise it didn't happen 🤔😂
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norburybrook
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Re: express build thoughts/conclusions

Post by norburybrook »

LOL... I'm on the road at the moment, I made this amp on my days off when I got home and my girlfriend was away.... Two weeks to go now...

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RockinRocket
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Re: express build thoughts/conclusions

Post by RockinRocket »

If you haven't compared a traditional Express with your tweaked Wreck its Apples to Oranges.
Most notable would be regarding the output transformer specs first and foremost.
I'm sure your build still sounds good but a you tube video isn't the way to make a conclusion.
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Re: express build thoughts/conclusions

Post by pompeiisneaks »

And for the 99% of us that never will, it's not as big of a possibility or comprehensible

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Re: RE: Re: express build thoughts/conclusions

Post by norburybrook »

RockinRocket wrote:If you haven't compared a traditional Express with your tweaked Wreck its Apples to Oranges.
Most notable would be regarding the output transformer specs first and foremost.
I'm sure your build still sounds good but a you tube video isn't the way to make a conclusion.
I've played a Ken fisher amp [emoji3] obviously there will be differences but apples to oranges I don't go with. Apples to different apples I'd say. I can mismatch the impedance to get 6.6k from the 3.3k OT if I wanted.

At the end of the day I don't care if it's 100% the Same as Kens amps, it's an amp.... It sounds great... Not for everyone I'd say... Not sure how I will use it yet [emoji3].

Personally I think you can get a good idea of an amps sound/ vibe from a you tube video. The same way I can tell if a mix is good by playing it on my phone.... If things are well balanced then it will sound good on small crappy speakers. I mix on my $10,000 quested monitors in a treated studio but I can tell if a mix is ok or not from the equivalent of a you tube video on my laptop/phone.

As I said before, the tiny subtleties and nuances of an original Vs a good clone dissapear as soon as you put them to use in a band situation.

If people want to obsess over this stuff then great, all I'm saying is, life is short, don't get too worried about it because IMHO as a working pro, it doesn't really matter as much as a lot of folks would have you believe.

[emoji3]

M

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RockinRocket
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Re: RE: Re: express build thoughts/conclusions

Post by RockinRocket »

Cool, didn't even assume your were familiar to the base tone. For me I have started to notice tone doesn't have as many flavors gaps as folks like to think.
SO the amp cleans up and responds normal with a bigger unorthodox impedance for a Wreck?? :)
norburybrook wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:21 am
RockinRocket wrote:If you haven't compared a traditional Express with your tweaked Wreck its Apples to Oranges.
Most notable would be regarding the output transformer specs first and foremost.
I'm sure your build still sounds good but a you tube video isn't the way to make a conclusion.
I've played a Ken fisher amp [emoji3] obviously there will be differences but apples to oranges I don't go with. Apples to different apples I'd say. I can mismatch the impedance to get 6.6k from the 3.3k OT if I wanted.

At the end of the day I don't care if it's 100% the Same as Kens amps, it's an amp.... It sounds great... Not for everyone I'd say... Not sure how I will use it yet [emoji3].

Personally I think you can get a good idea of an amps sound/ vibe from a you tube video. The same way I can tell if a mix is good by playing it on my phone.... If things are well balanced then it will sound good on small crappy speakers. I mix on my $10,000 quested monitors in a treated studio but I can tell if a mix is ok or not from the equivalent of a you tube video on my laptop/phone.

As I said before, the tiny subtleties and nuances of an original Vs a good clone dissapear as soon as you put them to use in a band situation.

If people want to obsess over this stuff then great, all I'm saying is, life is short, don't get too worried about it because IMHO as a working pro, it doesn't really matter as much as a lot of folks would have you believe.

[emoji3]

M

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Re: express build thoughts/conclusions

Post by Winder »

It's nice to have some reference, especially if you don't have access to the real deal. Glen's videos provide a nice reference and I think the tones are phenomenal even given the YouTube "effect". They give you an idea of what the amps can do and how to use them. It's taken me a couple of years of fiddling and learning from some very generous folks here to get something I think is close to that reference. Kudos if you nailed it first time out and without concern for the particulars that some folks fret over. I think there are some things required to get this particular circuit to that reference tone ... maybe they're just good practices in general, but some are not so obvious or at least seem to not make sense ... until you try them. Certainly, rolling tubes is a refinement that is worth at least experimenting with in by book. It would be nice to here what you have. I'm always up for listening to great tone. 8)
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Re: express build thoughts/conclusions

Post by Noobytube »

norburybrook wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:30 pm I've recently built my first express and wanted to air some thoughts on the whole 'express' thing.

As usual I did a lot of reading before I set about building. There seemed to be a lot of quite specific things required to get the 'express' thing right. The right transformers, the right caps, resistors, solid wire, lead dress, special valves, it seemed from my research the express was a difficult amp to get right and that it was prone to oscillation and wayward behaviour if not built correctly.

so what did I do?

well:


I used Sozo caps instead of orange drops,

I used a wrongly spec'd Marshall 50w OT instead of the 6.6K pacific,

I mounted them in the wrong place,

I used stranded cable and paid no attention to the correct lead dress, I just wired as I saw fit,

Used new JJ valves throughout,

what did I end up with.....


an amazing sounding amp that sounds exactly like this one

https://youtu.be/Uc3Xi6aAG80

it behaves the same with my 50's spec'd les Paul.

So my conclusion is;

Don't get too worked up about all this stuff, really, it might make 0.0001% difference in the end . Just build and try stuff out, my last Dumble build was cobbled together from random parts and a donor peavey combo amp.....it sounded fantastic, it sold to someone immediately and is in their studio as we speak waiting for Peter Frampton of all people to put some guitar down.

Take care of safety issues obviously, but there's a lot of leeway with this stuff.

happy building

Marcus
This is a heckuva a claim due to the amp and guitar u equivocated, I agree in principle, but I’d be more inclined to believe it if you posted those audio samples👍
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