Liverpool Output Transformer

Express, Liverpool, Rocket, Dirty Little Monster, etc.

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RockinRocket
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Liverpool Output Transformer

Post by RockinRocket »

Looks like the RockingClass thread in the files section didn't make it over to the new format of this forum. It had a LOT of good info in there and sad to have lost it. If I recall correctly Kens Pacifics only had a 6k6 tap.

The main question is who made the earliest Liverpool output transformers? Were they simply Stancor A3801?

Any other other info is appreciated greatly too. I have a A3801 and not sure if I should save it for a Express.
Thanks fellas
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Colossal
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Re: Liverpool Output Transformer

Post by Colossal »

RockinRocket wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:49 pmI have a A3801 and not sure if I should save it for a Express.
The Liverpool is a killer amp at 6k6.
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Re: Liverpool Output Transformer

Post by RockinRocket »

Do you prefer the 6k6 over the 5k2 ?
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Colossal
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Re: Liverpool Output Transformer

Post by Colossal »

RockinRocket wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:00 am Do you prefer the 6k6 over the 5k2 ?
Yes
Mark
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Re: Liverpool Output Transformer

Post by Mark »

I thought the Liverpool amp with a 6K6 primary was bluesy while the Liverpool with a 5K2 is louder and more aggressive. I suppose it depends on what you want. I believe RJ has built both Liverpool amps with both types of output transformers.
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M Fowler
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Re: Liverpool Output Transformer

Post by M Fowler »

RockinRocket wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:49 pm Looks like the RockingClass thread in the files section didn't make it over to the new format of this forum. It had a LOT of good info in there and sad to have lost it. If I recall correctly Kens Pacifics only had a 6k6 tap.
I have all the transformer diagrams from Pacific that were uploaded from probably that thread if needed.

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Re: Liverpool Output Transformer

Post by Mark »

That's probably a good idea Mark.
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RockinRocket
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Re: Liverpool Output Transformer

Post by RockinRocket »

Thanks Mark. I think I have saved those files too somewhere. If I cant find them, passing them my way would be much appreciated :) .


So anyone know what was the output transformer in Ginger? A3801?
M Fowler wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:39 am
RockinRocket wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:49 pm Looks like the RockingClass thread in the files section didn't make it over to the new format of this forum. It had a LOT of good info in there and sad to have lost it. If I recall correctly Kens Pacifics only had a 6k6 tap.
I have all the transformer diagrams from Pacific that were uploaded from probably that thread if needed.

Mark
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Re: Liverpool Output Transformer

Post by RJ Guitars »

I've done lots of Rockets and Express builds but only a few Liverpool's so my info on them is fairly limited... what I do know is below.

In the early days when the Trainwreck forum was really focused on cloning Wreck amps, the veteran builders promoted the idea that the 6.6K tap was standard for an Express and a 5.2K tap was the norm for a Liverpool. Almost all the early clones were built with Heyboer transformers and there was a standard OT available from "Moose" with both the 5.2K and 6.6K taps. Dozens if not hundreds of Wreck clones were made using the Heyboer tranny sets but when the Pacific tranny set became available the practice of using the 5.2K primary for the LP builds sorta became less accepted as authentic. It's not clear where the original idea came from.

It's my understanding that Rob Hinson worked with Heyboer to create those Wreck spec transformers and he is probably one of the most informed on what was actually used in the Wreck builds that they were cloning. I think that "Geetarpicker" knows a bit about this stuff as well. He had a Liverpool at one point but I dunno if it was an older or newer one or what OT was in it.

All the newer Liverpools and Express amps apparently used the same Pacific output tranny. The OEM Wreck Pacific OT does not have the 5.2K tap so it's believed all the later LP's used the 6.6K tap... I have a note from Pat Thomas over at Pacific where he states that Pacific made only one set of specifications on the trannies they provided to KF.

Meanwhile it's not clear where that 5.2K tap idea originated but I suspect somebody back in the day knew something that initiated that idea. When I first started working with Phil from Heyboer he said he had a written set of OT specs in his hand that were worked out between his father and Ken Fischer. This part number was listed as an HTS-5200 (model 11415 - same part number Pacific uses on their Wreck OT) and is similar to a Stancor A-3801 except for the 5.2K primary. The outputs were listed as 4, 8, and 16 ohms versus 4, 8, and 15 ohms like the Stancor.

There are probable some old timers that really know this stuff if we were to inspire them to add what they know...
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Re: Liverpool Output Transformer

Post by RockinRocket »

Thanks for the detailed reply RJ :) .

What amps have been documented with Heyboer? I thought the Heyboer thing was a myth.. but I really don't know much on the subject.
One of Glens amps have the perf board and flea clips and Pacifics. AFAIK the flea clips were the MK1 amps being 1980's as a general understanding.
RJ Guitars wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:11 pm I've done lots of Rockets and Express builds but only a few Liverpool's so my info on them is fairly limited... what I do know is below.

In the early days when the Trainwreck forum was really focused on cloning Wreck amps, the veteran builders promoted the idea that the 6.6K tap was standard for an Express and a 5.2K tap was the norm for a Liverpool. Almost all the early clones were built with Heyboer transformers and there was a standard OT available from "Moose" with both the 5.2K and 6.6K taps. Dozens if not hundreds of Wreck clones were made using the Heyboer tranny sets but when the Pacific tranny set became available the practice of using the 5.2K primary for the LP builds sorta became less accepted as authentic. It's not clear where the original idea came from.

It's my understanding that Rob Hinson worked with Heyboer to create those Wreck spec transformers and he is probably one of the most informed on what was actually used in the Wreck builds that they were cloning. I think that "Geetarpicker" knows a bit about this stuff as well. He had a Liverpool at one point but I dunno if it was an older or newer one or what OT was in it.

All the newer Liverpools and Express amps apparently used the same Pacific output tranny. The OEM Wreck Pacific OT does not have the 5.2K tap so it's believed all the later LP's used the 6.6K tap... I have a note from Pat Thomas over at Pacific where he states that Pacific made only one set of specifications on the trannies they provided to KF.

Meanwhile it's not clear where that 5.2K tap idea originated but I suspect somebody back in the day knew something that initiated that idea. When I first started working with Phil from Heyboer he said he had a written set of OT specs in his hand that were worked out between his father and Ken Fischer. This part number was listed as an HTS-5200 (model 11415 - same part number Pacific uses on their Wreck OT) and is similar to a Stancor A-3801 except for the 5.2K primary. The outputs were listed as 4, 8, and 16 ohms versus 4, 8, and 15 ohms like the Stancor.

There are probable some old timers that really know this stuff if we were to inspire them to add what they know...
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M Fowler
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Re: Liverpool Output Transformer

Post by M Fowler »

From my Moose notes: -- the HTS5200 is NOT the correct liverpool tranny. It is an M6 steel stancor style that was for an experiment that KF wanted to do with hi-fi materials. Maybe it was when he was choosing steel for a clean amp like the Rocket, or something else, but it's nothing like what ended up in liverpools. This was one of the red herrings in the early days here.

The "correct" liverpool tranny is going to be an original stancor, or a Pacific at 5200 or my 5200 ohm heyboer offering. I mentioned that I have separated the line to carry more pure versions earlier in this thread. I have boatloads of liverpool trannies in stock and on sale.

Read this thread from top to bottom: http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... ransformer

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... ransformer
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Re: Liverpool Output Transformer

Post by Mark »

The 5.2K transformer was initially used in Express clone amps as Ken had ordered it from Heyboer, this was used as it was the starting point, Hammond transformers were used too, Steve Ahola was posting circuits at this time which might have details of the Hammond transformers used.

In the Express the 5.2K transformer wasn't popular as it was too bright, people did try it in the Liverpool when info on that amp surfaced and they liked what it did. Allyn Meyer would be the guy to talk to about Liverpool amps using a 5.2K primary. I was sent pictures of a Liverpool amp and I drew up circuits and layouts. I had a crack at the Rocket too but my initial drawing based on a discussion on an early Two Rock version of the Rocket are incorrect. Mark Kane told me the true circuit for the Rocket.

As far as details on the Express transformer I can't remember if someone was on to this before me, but Dave Funk told me about the M27 steel the transformer used as well as the 6.6K primary.

I don't want to sound like I'm blowing my own horn as we all worked together to work out what made this amp tick. There are a lot of guys who worked hard on working out these amps. Allyn Meyer's pictures of Francesca was a pivotal moment for the group.

P.S. Please excuse my rambling dialogue, I'm thinking out loud.
Last edited by Mark on Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liverpool Output Transformer

Post by 2tone »

I had written in two places in my ongoing Ken discussion notes that the Liverpool was around 5 k, so was very confused when it is now 6.6k. I had old transformer Express and Liverpool with the same Stancor OT's...
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Re: Liverpool Output Transformer

Post by Colossal »

2tone wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:52 pm I had written in two places in my ongoing Ken discussion notes that the Liverpool was around 5 k, so was very confused when it is now 6.6k. I had old transformer Express and Liverpool with the same Stancor OT's...
2tone and all, I think the 6k6 tap as the standard for the Liverpool evolved from Allyn and others stating that the 5k2 was more aggressive but the 6k6 tap was bluesier and creamier (my experience and preference also as the amp is plenty aggressive as it is) as well as the later Pacifics used for both Express and Liverpools had a single 6k6 tap.
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Re: Liverpool Output Transformer

Post by Mark »

5.2K has been reported to be louder too.
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