Best tubes for the Rocket

[nworbetan]

My questions aren't going anywhere any time soon, but I have a some Hammond and RCA donor transformers from the early '60s that originally used EL-84s. Whenever I get around to actually building those, I'll probably try out whatever's available in current production since it looks like I'm too late to have a realistic chance at the really good tubes for a really good price.

[2tone]

Yes there was a change in the Commercial EL 84, and I don't know the technical point; the newer ( and possibly still the current commercial 84) 84 didn't sound as good. Ken would still source old ones to use, but he wasn't making many amps by then.. I can't remember if it was a factory change, but likely...newer ones were duller sounding,not as musical..

[2tone]

Yes there was a change in the Commercial EL 84, and I don't know the technical point; the newer ( and possibly still the current commercial 84) 84 didn't sound as good. Ken would still source old ones to use, but he wasn't making many amps by then.. I can't remember if it was a factory change, but likely...newer ones were duller sounding,not as musical..Tesla 84's weren't his favorite. EI's could sound good in his amps.

[rooster]

2tone? We were talking 'Standard Sovtek EL84s' and now you've mentioned 'Commercial' Sovtek. Is this 'Commercial' tube a reference to the EL84M, or are you trying to confuse me?

[redshark]

I think the commercial sovtek 2tone is talking about is the standard 6P14P.
There were like 5 different military types if I remember correctly 6P14P-M and other letters. They had different applications. Extended hours, microphonics, to be used upside down.
I think Ken just preferred the ordinary 6P14P standards vs. the other types.
Am I correct 2tone?

[rooster]

redshark, have you looked at the posted tube pictures? You are taking this down the rabbit hole even further.....

[2tone]

Yes, Redshark is right. It is the standard tube, used to be called commercial by Ken etc. Same tube. But the current standard EL84 is not the same tube..I believe it is a different factory, sound is not as inspiring as the old one.

[rooster]

Hm. OK, if you two, 2tone and redshark, don't mind, let's try to summarize this EL84 thing. However I am reading some conflicting posts it would seem - at this point - and seeing some pictures that don't support what you two are now saying. So help me here.

#1) Q: Has Russia ever produced a 6P14P without the odd logo and the '6P14P' lettering burnt into the glass?

#2) The tube picture you posted, 2tone, does NOT have this logo and number on it - and yet you are saying that this pictured tube is now the 'Commercial' tube and not the 'Standard' tube. Q: What?

#3) I've traded for some tubes with you, redshark, and they were indeed marked with the 6P14P lettering and logo, which BTW - for the sake of keeping things clear - are also referenced here and on the internet as the 'Saratov' EL84 because it was made in the Saratov factory. Q: In your opinion, do you think this is the 'Standard Sovtek' EL84 that Ken was talking about in the paragraphs I posted on page one of this post? Q: Why do you think Ken is quoted as saying 'Standard Sovtek EL84' when he could of just as easily said 'Commercial Sovtek EL84'? Q: Or for that matter why do you think he didn't just say 'the ones branded 6P14P?'

#4) Q: Did Groovetubes - in the day (1994-5) that Ken referenced in the articles - sell the branded '6P14P' Russian tube? Did you ever buy one or see one with the Groovetube lettering on it?

I'm thinking that you are both trying to be helpful and wanting to help sort this out for the sake of helping others with their Rocket TONE, but at this point, you are blurring the lines. Let's sort this. Thanks.

[rooster]

Also I will note that I received a quad of what I am calling the 'Standard Sovtek EL84' manufacturing date 2011-2012, and the getter is different in this tube than what you see in the tube photos on page 1. The getter is a flat disk, it does not contain the 'dimpled' getter that the other tubes have. So, whatever else might be the same, the getter has changed for certain. What year this happened, looking at various sites, I can confirm sometime after 2006 but don't know the exact date.

These tubes I just received marked 'Sovtek EL84' have now been measured for current draw in my AC30TB/Rocket/AC30-4. Here's the mA #s: 47.7 - 45.7 - 46.8 - and 43.2. After 20 minutes, the amp sounds fine, no added noise vs. the new quad of 6P14Ps. I will burn them in for about 6 hours and record something with them, and them put the new quad of 6P14Ps back in and record that.

Also let me talk money. The 1989 dated Saratov 6P14P quad cost $73 delivered from Massachusetts. The 2011-12 dated Sovtek EL84 quad cost $27 from California. Nagging Q: Is someone in Russia laughing at all the amp nerds?

[redshark]

Rooster the EL84's I sent you were standard 6P14P. No extension -M or other. You can google it. There was an article I read a lot time ago where all the extensions were explained and they all had different specs.
Ken preferred the commercial No extension.
That was the tube that in the early 80's was labeled as sovtek or Russian groove tube.
Still, there were changes and differences during the 80's.
I got clever a while ago and started hunting Hammond labeled EL84's.
Many EL84's were relabeled Hammond in the 60's
Germany, Holland, UK, USA etc.....
rX3, rX4 and other different codes. I matched them with the new Orange tube matcher and to my ears the Germany labeled ones sound better than the Russian. Are the German Hammonds Telefunken or Valvo or whatever? I don't know but they sound great and they've lasted at least since 2010 that I built my only rocket.
I still have Russians 6P14P and European EL84's for the day that I decide to build my Liverpool.
That day I will transfer the set in my rocket to the new Liverpool and I will use a "new" set for the rocket.
That was Ken's recommendation. He said that the EL84's lasted longer time in the Pools than Rockets.
Ask 2tone. I'm sure he knows about that.

[redshark]

Here you go...... Sorry, my bad, no -M extension....

6П14П / 6P14P; bog standard version, large thick glass = EL84, 6BQ5
6П14П-EB / 6P14P-EV; hardened version, longer lifetime = EL84M, 7189
6П14П-EP / 6P14P-ER; special quality, longer lifetime = E84L, 7320 (quite rare)
6П14П-K / 6P14P-K; hardened version, vibration resistant = EL84F (very rare)

[2tone]

By 2011 the tube was different than the old 6n14n. And yes they did make unlabeled tubes in the old factory. Even some of the old Groove Tubes 6n14n were not labeled.. By the way, 6n14n is the same as 6p14p...the difference is terminology. The n looked like the symbol 'pi", and so some people call it the 6p14p, and the p is probably for the symbol "pi".??.but the Russian letter "n" may be their "pi" symbol? I don't know. It boils down to any EL84 without a suffix after the last letter, whether you call it p, or n. ( ha not porn!!) is the commercial or standard tube...same tube.. I have no idea why Ken mentioned standard vs commercial. They are the same tube. Ken usually called it the commercial, as different from the Military tube. Maybe he used the word "standard" too at times, I just remember him calling it commercial grade and always used that term when I talked to him.

[redshark]

I forgot to say....all those Russian 6P14P family dissipates 14 watts instead of 12 watts...
So ideal for VOX or Pro jr. or Rocket or any other amp that drives the EL84s hard.
They last!!!!

[2tone]

yes, these tubes, even tho spec sheet says 300 v rated plate, do last in the Rocket. Even my high voltage Rocket,the tubes lasted almost 2 years. The Rocket is hard on output and rectifier tubes.. Liverpool doesn't punish the tubes like the Rocket, although plate volts are higher in Liverpool, current is less. Ken used to send his tubes from his Rocket to a guy that had a Liverpool, and the used tubes ran great in the Liverpool after doing a tour of duty in the Rocket..

[rooster]

redshark and 2tone, thank you for the responses. I will digest all of this a bit and get back here with my response. In the meantime...

Redshark, you wrote: << "Ken preferred the commercial No extension.
That was the tube that in the early 80's was labeled as Sovtek or Russian Groove Tube.
Still, there were changes and differences during the 80's." >>,

I have to remind you that the articles I quoted from Ken were written in 1994-5 and in them he has NOT noted any stipulations as to '80s tubes or prior being better or different in his opinion. He is saying that the THEN current batch (1994-5) - via GT or New Sensor - is the tube he prefers. Also as far as my memory serves me, NONE of these tubes had the 6P14P and Saratov logo on them underneath the GT info. Does anyone know different? All of which is not to say the GT and New Sensor couldn't request unmarked tubes or tubes with different labeling I suppose...

Redshark, you seem to present a specialized knowledge that I don't know anything about. Are you suggesting that the 6P14P + Saratov logo labeling didn't exist in 1980s (and prior) or something like that? That would be interesting to learn.