Trainwreck wattage

[astro8585]

So I've seen a number of examples where the power output of Trainwrecks are given as 35w for a Liverpool and 50w for an Express. As I recall from a spec sheet Ken sent me with a letter when I first started asking about his amps (1988 probably, eventually got a Liverpool Greta in 92. Had it until 98) a Liverpool was rated at 26w(Class A), an Express at 36w (EL34) and 22w (6v6). He sometimes used the term "Trainwreck watts" whatever that means. And also said or implied that it was not necessary to rebias when using 6v6s in the Express. Can any of you verify this? My documentation was lost at the time of Hurricane Katrina.

[martin manning]

On paper, at 400V with a 6k6 load, a pair of EL34's would produce ~45W, and a pair of 6V6's ~30W. Dialed down to a clean sine wave at the output, around 36 for EL34's and 22 for 6V6 sounds about right. In "The Trainwreck Pages," it says that the Express' EL34's can be swapped for 6vV6s with no bias adjustment (I'd check for sure, though). That documentation is here on TAG: http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=792#p792

[Mark]

I thought the Express was rated at 35 watts and the Liverpool is 24 watts. Of course it's all relative to percentage of distortion. Though I doubt this is a consideration with the Trainwreck amps, I imagine the wattage is determined prior to the sine wave visibly changing shape.

[M Fowler]

And your ears say that the Trainwrecks are much higher wattage just because they cut through like crazy.

300mA is quite large in Power Transformer speak.

Mark

[rooster]

Maybe this is a thought. Back in that time period, I remember that Rivera said (in one of their amps, right on the circuit board) to set/bias their Class AB EL34s to -35 volt. I had one, a 4 EL34 amp. They said you could swap 6V6s, same -35 volt setting. I think their amps using these tubes were around 425 at plate. I think it was just a common thing to offer in an amp at the time and I'm pretty sure there were others. I remember the Marshall number for two EL34s was -32. It was just the way things were at the time.

Ken did say that a cold swap was fine, 6V6 vs. El34. However, I even went to the trouble to find and buy a matched pair of 6V6s that drew about 26mA @ while the particular EL34 set was biased via the current draw method and I just couldn't get with the 6V6 sound here. Eh, so it's nothing that interests me. I mean, it sounds good on paper, you go into some small club and you think 'oh, 6V6s here,' but the Express is an EL34 amp so I'll just turn down and use a pedal.

[RockinRocket]

The output transformers on the Stancore are listed as 35watts.
Perhaps this is where that figure came from?

[Littlewyan]

I measured my Express and it always comes out at around 35W Clean. I always thought a Liverpool was the same to be honest.

[astro8585]

Yeah I'd forgotten about The Trainwreck Pages sorta because I remembered that as being overall more as amps in general and not so Trainwreck specific. Seems like there was something there about the bias on the Express and something when he was addressing classes of operation. I think I still have the Angela Instruments catalog with The Trainwreck Pages around here somewhere. Also I no longer have the "Best Tube Amp Made Today" sales brochure which is documented here as well. I often mix up things Ken said in the handful of letters he sent with descriptions in that brochure. All I remember is the first thing I asked was Is the Liverpool 30 an Ac30 clone? He said the Liverpool 30 is not an Ac30 clone. It's a lead amp with a smooth singing sustain. It won't grind out power chords. The Express will grind out power chords but not as rough as a Marshall. It wasn't until later that the Rocket appeared as a model. Anyway thanks for your information. I tend to go in cycles where I don't look up Trainwreck stuff for awhile but always come back around eventually. All of you here have assembled a great wealth of invaluable information about Trainwreck amps. It's a terrific resource and much appreciated.

[astro8585]

@rooster Yeah that's a good point. Wanna get back to you on that.