Output tranny again

[PeteRH]

I have been trying to find the specs on a Stancor A-8117 (8817A?) output tranny like the one on the Francesca pics.
Unfortunately I have come up with nothing from my old catalogs (the latest 1961). Does anyone have some newer catalogs with any of the info?
Thanks in advance
Pete

[Funkalicousgroove]

Are you sure it's a stancor? I actually was curious so I called them, they don't show that model # in their Discontinued stuff, but the fellow there was very friendly and said he'd research it and get back to me. If they have a build sheet they'd part with Phil at heyboer can make them.

[PeteRH]

I have read quite a few posts from different reputable sources that the trannies were off the shelf Stancors. I believe it to be true.

But I just realised that the 8117A is a red herring. Stancor makes A-8110 to A-8116 transformers per the catalog but in this case the 8117A is a date code and NOT the transformer type.

I have a A-8050 50 watt 6.6K stancor tranny in front of me with a 7727X stamp in exactly the same place in the same size text. Slightly different font but maybe the stamp 77 stamp wore out.

[Mark]

Dear Pete and Brandon

I have had some correspondence with Phil about the transformers and he did quote the Stancor part number to me for the power and output transformer.

I'll have a look at my notes as soon as I can and post the part numbers of the transformers. I thought there were mentioned in the Heybour drawings at this site.

[Mark]

Dear Pete and Brandon

The drawing on this site says the power transformer Stancor number is 11410,

I'm not sure of the part number of the output transformer, but it is very similar to the power transformer number and as I previously mentioned, I will endeavour to find out the part number.

[PeteRH]

Hi Mark,

My Heyboer trainwreck clone output tranny has 11415 TW-OT on it. The PT similarly has 11410. I thought this number was just a Heyboer product/production code as all the Stancor OP's I have seen are 4 digits preceded by A.

Date codes, product codes, model numbers.....could I be wrong again? Probably.

Cheers
Pete

[Bombay]

Hey PeteRH,

You are correct on the numbers for the Stancor OT bieng four digits with A indicating that it is for audio.

The Stancor number for the Trainwreck Express amp is 3801. Here's the killer part though, Stancor made them a little different over the years.

[PeteRH]

Comparing the physical dimensions of the Heyboer and the 3801 they seem identical. The 3801 is speced as 35 watt, 6.6K, 150mA max primary DC, 15-8-4 ohm taps....sounds very familiar.

Thanks Bombay,
Is there anything special about these trannies that you know of? ie. interleaving, grade oriented steel, M27, M6 etc?

I hope you got a few of these off ebay before the bidding wars start.
Cheers
Pete

[rhinson]

hello there, one big difference between the twreck output and all others i've ever seen is the way the laminates are stacked. the trainwreck styles all use what is called butt stacking of the lams--i've never seen this on any other transformer. just compare the side view of the stack next to any other trannie stack and you'll see what i mean. i'm not a technical transformer expert but i'm sure this would have an effect on the magnetic field in some fashion and thus help shape the sound. this may have been brought up before since it's physically obvious but just thought i'd throw it in the mix. rh

[Bombay]

Hey PeteRH,

I don't have the lam spec on the 3801, I've heard it was M6, maybe it's in the Stancor catalog. If I could get a blown one, I could do a teardown on it, sorry, I won't do this to a working unit.

I do have a 3801 already. I hope they don't start getting sucked up.

rhinson,

The reason the Twreck OT's use this butt stack is because they are based on the Stancor OT. Here is a side by side comparison of the Stancor and the Heyboer Ot.

[PeteRH]

Thanks for those photos Bombay!

I have some info at home where Phil was making them with both M6 or M26(?) for some guys. The laminations on the Heyboer look thinner and I would guess that those are M6. I will check my transformer info after work today and will be counting laminations.

Thanks again
Pete

[Chad]

When I picked up my OT and PT from Phil this is what he had to say about the different steel used.

Chad, yes, we did some transformers for him. I dont know what model(s) it was for sure. i was told express was one.
anyway , we have it in a few variations. seems later some of the fellows who have been messing around with these have liked it better with lower grade steel than the m-6 for better low end . took some of the hi fi out of it. i dont know , just what i have been told. we basic have a 30 watt and a slight bigger 35 watt range output. our numbers on the original are HTS-5199 power and HTS-5200 is output for 30 watt that sells the most." thanks, Phil

Don't know if that will help or not, Chad

[PeteRH]

A guy could go nuts counting laminations from photos

The end result is I think the laminations on Francesca's 3801 and Bombays 3801 are both 26 ga. (anyone else want to count laminations??)
The concensus (not a proven fact) is Stancors were generally M50 for their GP output trannies as it was the cheapest grade plate. However Mark Abbott wrote ages ago:

This what I have on the matter.

The output transformer has a 6.6K primary and the usual tapped
secondaries. The wind is a typical vintage five interleave, and the
steel is M19.

Okay, one of the transformers being offered by Heybour has 5.2K
primary impedance, tapped secondaries, (I have no idea about the
wind), and uses M6 steel.

This transformer some claim was ordered for a Rocket amp, mind you I
have heard some people say that Express amps sound even better when a
5.2K primary is used. Horses for courses again.

There is another Heybour transformer being offered, and this one was
developed by Doug Holt and others. I have heard that it does sound
very good in an Express amp.

I think that it does use 6.6K primary, I have no idea about the wind,
and the steel is M27. Once again the Trainwreck folk lore comes into
it's own, there was a stage where people believed that M26 was the
correct steel for these transformers.

I would love to hear from someone who helped Doug come up with these
transformers, and anyone who knows something about the power
transformer design.

I have tried asking around with a bit of success, as I've shown above.

Thanks for your help.

Yours Sincerely

Mark Abbott.

I seem to recall that Chris Gondoli also ordered some M26 output trannies and this seems to be per chads posts below.

I asked Phil to make me up a 5200 o/t with 26Ga M19 last time but ended up getting M6 since he said he would have to special order the M19. Anyone interested in getting some 5199's made up with 26ga M19 and the "typical vintage five interleave winding"? If we get some numbers i am sure he would order some M19 in and also would post individually if he had some qty to produce.



All Heyboer 5199 power trannies are 29ga.M6 The Trainwreck power trannies look like they are 29ga and FWIW I would guess M6

[Chris G]

A guy could go nuts counting laminations from photos

The end result is I think the laminations on Francesca's 3801 and Bombays 3801 are both 26 ga. (anyone else want to count laminations??)
The concensus (not a proven fact) is Stancors were generally M50 for their GP output trannies as it was the cheapest grade plate. However Mark Abbott wrote ages ago:

This what I have on the matter.

The output transformer has a 6.6K primary and the usual tapped
secondaries. The wind is a typical vintage five interleave, and the
steel is M19.

Okay, one of the transformers being offered by Heybour has 5.2K
primary impedance, tapped secondaries, (I have no idea about the
wind), and uses M6 steel.

This transformer some claim was ordered for a Rocket amp, mind you I
have heard some people say that Express amps sound even better when a
5.2K primary is used. Horses for courses again.

There is another Heybour transformer being offered, and this one was
developed by Doug Holt and others. I have heard that it does sound
very good in an Express amp.

I think that it does use 6.6K primary, I have no idea about the wind,
and the steel is M27. Once again the Trainwreck folk lore comes into
it's own, there was a stage where people believed that M26 was the
correct steel for these transformers.

I would love to hear from someone who helped Doug come up with these
transformers, and anyone who knows something about the power
transformer design.

I have tried asking around with a bit of success, as I've shown above.

Thanks for your help.

Yours Sincerely

Mark Abbott.

I seem to recall that Chris Gondoli also ordered some M26 output trannies and this seems to be per chads posts below.

I asked Phil to make me up a 5200 o/t with 26Ga M19 last time but ended up getting M6 since he said he would have to special order the M19. Anyone interested in getting some 5199's made up with 26ga M19 and the "typical vintage five interleave winding"? If we get some numbers i am sure he would order some M19 in and also would post individually if he had some qty to produce.



All Heyboer 5199 power trannies are 29ga.M6 The Trainwreck power trannies look like they are 29ga and FWIW I would guess M6

Hi Guy's,
Here's my story with the heyboers.
About 3 years ago I was going through the old trainwreck site and in the photo section one of the amps said it had a Heyboer ot,I looked them up gave them a call and asked if they still offered those trannies they supplied to Ken, They said they had wound some for him when there dad owned the company(late 80's).

They said they had a 30 watt and a 35watt output @5.2k and 6.6kprimarys and a power with dual secondarys.

Iasked them for the notes on the job card and all it said was"take this example and wind it to a prim of 6.6k."

I ordered 2-5.2ks 35 watt ot's. 2-6.6k 35 watters and 2 powers,m6 on everything.

They also told me I was the second guy to ask about them,Doug Holt of Jenkins cabs had also had them wind some for him that he was going to start selling.

After awhile I started hearing that the m26 might be the way go, I called Doug Holt to ask him about the m26 and why he went with that instead of m6, He said the m26 took alittle of the "hi-fi" sound out and added alittle more low end.He also went on to say if the amp wasn't tuned to prefection you probabley wouldn't notice a difference.

I ordered a 6.6k 35 watt ot with m26 and put it in my liverpool clone and I didn't hear much of a difference at all.

FWIW,I ended up with the 5.2k 35 watt m6 lams in the Express and a 6.6k 35 watt m6 lams in my pool.............the 6.6k m26 went into an amp with kt66's..............which means I still have a 35 watt 5.2k m6 output and 6.6k m6 left!!!
Thanks!!!!

Chris G

[Moose]

Right now, the output trannies I stock are M26 laminates. Before I ordered the first batch there was a ton of discussion, much of which I promised not to reveal, that basically pointed to the fact that if there was any difference using the m26 it was that it has more bottom end and is slightly less harmonically pure. Some folks say it takes golden ears to hear the difference, others can hear the difference and say the M6 is more "hifi" and all that. Many other factors in an amp can swamp the difference, but it is there. I'll be honest and say I doubt most of us will notice unless we A/B the trannies in otherwise identical amps, and the trannies sound good in a variety of applications, so there we are.

As an aside, the PTs are all M6 laminates.

I also went with the dual primaries because the difference between 5200 and 6600 is far more apparent than the steel. It was recently revealed that Ken liked 5200 for Les Paul players who were hitting the bottom too hard and getting a mushy distortion tone.

Now, all y'all can go crazy trying M19 vs. M6 and I'm sure Heyboer will take care of you, but a lot of work went into discovering that there's very little difference between M26 and M6, and the M19 is probably right in the middle.

I do encourage you to give it a try if you want to hear for yourself, but I also want to discourage folks from going straight to heyboer for any OTs with M26 lams. I put several thousand dollars at a pop up front to keep these things in stock and readily available, and it took 9 months to break even on the last batch. I don't make much profit, so if you want to compare M26 to whatever other steel you decide to order, I beg of you to get the M26 trannies from me.