My first build is still waiting on cabinet materials, the correct OT, caps, and more. Currently I have ordered the 6.6K OT (currently 5.2K), Mallory CDE TC-75, TC-78, SKA100M100, SKA220M25 capacitors, a new set of PEC pots, micalex tube sockets and a studio quality CD to gain a clearer understanding of this amp. I’ll be swapping parts and conducting more tests upon the arrival of these items (This is super addicting!). Here is a link to the pic with mistakes. Do not follow the regime of this pic it will not produce the desired results.
Regards,
Travis
http://www.firestormigniters.com/trainw ... ighRes.jpg
Note: This is the first time we've used this site, we'll refine our techniques as we gain experience.
Zeus, my First (and on going) Build.
Moderators: pompeiisneaks, Colossal
Re: Zeus, my First (and on going) Build.
Ok...I will jump in first!
What is the sound quality like Travis? Anything like a Twreck should sound like?
Dave O.
What is the sound quality like Travis? Anything like a Twreck should sound like?
Dave O.
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novusoscar
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:12 am
Re: Zeus, my First (and on going) Build.
I think the brite switch is too bright, but it does have a certian snap to it that I like. We can tone that down by adjusting a capicitor value.ampgeek wrote:Ok...I will jump in first!
What is the sound quality like Travis? Anything like a Twreck should sound like?
Dave O.
With the amp set to high volume the guitar's volume roll-off cleans up nicely. There is a definate resonant ring or singing present. However, I'm still trying to determine what is the best method to get it to ring/sing as like in Glen Kuykendall's. He has an awesome tone. That is why I believe the choice of the cabinet is so important.
I am using dual DeArmonde 2K pickups wired in parallel.
Low range sounds .... Plenty of punch
Mid range.... Is very defined, it's where I hear the most bell like tones but it's also where it starts to get a bit edgy.
High range.... Is the fastest tone to respond especially in regards to pick attack and is overall very brite. However it does produce a nice overtone in the whole mix.
At low volume it cleans up very nicely but it's hard to compare because most of the sound samples that I've heard are at high gain volume.
The response of this amp is exceptionally fast, and I'm curious as to how that compares to other origional TW's.
I picture an origional wreck to have less hum. This version of Zeus is a little too abrasive for my taste. Rerouting the heater wires should help clean up the hum.
It seems there would be many more sweet spots on an origional. However, there is potential for a nice chime and the ability for it to really sing.
Regards,
Travis
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tele caster
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 5:17 pm
Re: Zeus, my First (and on going) Build.
You sound like you really know your stuff. Please tell us more! 
Re: Zeus, my First (and on going) Build.
Travis,
When you guys started this project where did you get your information from to build the Express such as schematic and layout? If it was from this site then why didn't you follow the Express build guide for component BOM and the critical lead dress necesary to successfully master this circuit?
Mark
When you guys started this project where did you get your information from to build the Express such as schematic and layout? If it was from this site then why didn't you follow the Express build guide for component BOM and the critical lead dress necesary to successfully master this circuit?
Mark
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ampman1961
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:36 pm
- Location: Venice California USA
- Contact:
Re: Zeus, my First (and on going) Build.
Interesting...
"Life is too short for Solid State"
www.redjonesamplification.com
www.redjonesamplification.com
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novusoscar
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:12 am
Re: Zeus, my First (and on going) Build.
When I started the project it was more about building an amp that suited my personal taste. I believe an amp has the ability to reflect one's artistic taste and therefore amp building is more of an art rather than just copying one's design. I researched several amps before chosing this as a base design and found KF's designs to be the closest thing to suit my personal taste as an artist. However there is still work to be done.M Fowler wrote:Travis,
When you guys started this project where did you get your information from to build the Express such as schematic and layout? If it was from this site then why didn't you follow the Express build guide for component BOM and the critical lead dress necesary to successfully master this circuit?
Mark
Regards,
Travis
Re: Zeus, my First (and on going) Build.
Travis, Jeff - welcome to Ampgarage!
You'll find the guys here to be enthusiastic and helpful, as long as you leave out the 'boutique manifesto' stuff and the voodoo-mystique nonsense about Ken Fischer. You do not have an 'ampstrument', you have a potentially cool guitar amplifier - no more, no less - made to a design that dates back almost 30 years. You're not 'pioneers' in any sense, outside of your own workshop. The people here at Ampgarage have built hundreds of these, and have a wealth of experience and information which by the very nature of the place, they are usually delighted to share.
In truth, the Trainwreck Express is a difficult build for beginners like yourselves - a better plan of action might have been to build a single-ended type amp or an 18-watter before attempting something as ambitious as a TW. The trainwreck (as you are probably now finding out) is an amplifier which treads a fine line between stability and instability, and alterations - 'tweaks', if you will, which are relatively minor on other amps can be the difference between a usable trainwreck and a doorstop. The cabinet material and the 'slits' don't make any difference. That's hi-fi buff pseudo-science, crop circle, snake-oil. Really. Look for instance, at Bob Reinhardt's amp range. Some of these superb amps are Trainwreck-based, but are housed in Marshall-style cabinets. Still fantastic amps. If you achieve anything close to Bob's standards in construction and tone you'll have done very well indeed.
You've wired your OT backwards. Try wiring it correctly - you don't need to wait for the new OT to arrive. Your choice of transformers is very important-I'll leave it to those better qualified than myself to comment on your choice(s) so far. And study the lead dress approaches on the pics of TW builds here on this site. Assuming your wiring is correct, the lead dress is one of the key issues that determines the success of your build. The choice of tubes is another, but I think you need to look at tube parameters other than the ones you've mentioned on TGP. Again - search past threads on that subject here at Ampgarage and you should find the info you need. Just a little more humility and sanity would help your cause greatly, because to date all we've seen on TGP is Don Quixote and Sancho Panza tilting at Trainwrecks....
Good luck!
You'll find the guys here to be enthusiastic and helpful, as long as you leave out the 'boutique manifesto' stuff and the voodoo-mystique nonsense about Ken Fischer. You do not have an 'ampstrument', you have a potentially cool guitar amplifier - no more, no less - made to a design that dates back almost 30 years. You're not 'pioneers' in any sense, outside of your own workshop. The people here at Ampgarage have built hundreds of these, and have a wealth of experience and information which by the very nature of the place, they are usually delighted to share.
In truth, the Trainwreck Express is a difficult build for beginners like yourselves - a better plan of action might have been to build a single-ended type amp or an 18-watter before attempting something as ambitious as a TW. The trainwreck (as you are probably now finding out) is an amplifier which treads a fine line between stability and instability, and alterations - 'tweaks', if you will, which are relatively minor on other amps can be the difference between a usable trainwreck and a doorstop. The cabinet material and the 'slits' don't make any difference. That's hi-fi buff pseudo-science, crop circle, snake-oil. Really. Look for instance, at Bob Reinhardt's amp range. Some of these superb amps are Trainwreck-based, but are housed in Marshall-style cabinets. Still fantastic amps. If you achieve anything close to Bob's standards in construction and tone you'll have done very well indeed.
You've wired your OT backwards. Try wiring it correctly - you don't need to wait for the new OT to arrive. Your choice of transformers is very important-I'll leave it to those better qualified than myself to comment on your choice(s) so far. And study the lead dress approaches on the pics of TW builds here on this site. Assuming your wiring is correct, the lead dress is one of the key issues that determines the success of your build. The choice of tubes is another, but I think you need to look at tube parameters other than the ones you've mentioned on TGP. Again - search past threads on that subject here at Ampgarage and you should find the info you need. Just a little more humility and sanity would help your cause greatly, because to date all we've seen on TGP is Don Quixote and Sancho Panza tilting at Trainwrecks....
Good luck!
Last edited by dunara on Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Zeus, my First (and on going) Build.
Trainwreck Express with different styles of music to give you a benchmark:
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6865
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=102261
If you're talking about the amp cabinet then it is not that important. What is important is that you've chosen ceramic sockets for V1, which is the worst possible place you could ever use a ceramic socket. Even when Marshall went through their phase of installing ceramics they still specified a micalex in V1 for this very reason, and they're comparatively low gain!
If you take some time to do some background reading here you'll see that Ken only ever built heads because of this reason and people like Glen tend to try to keep the head off the cabinet for recording because of the sensitivity.
You're not trying to encourage interaction between the speakers and the amp, you're actually trying to keep it at bay.
Indeed, take a read of this thread:
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8561
and you'll see that an isolated socket improved the amp.
The critical cabinet is the speaker cabinet, and this amp was voiced specifically for a 4x12 with old G12Ms. If you use V30s they'll tear your head off, and open back cabinets just don't seem to cut it.
I've tried open, closed, 1x12, 2x12 and 4x12 and I always end up with a 4x12 with Scumback M75s (G12M equivalent).
Lead dress is probably the most critical aspect of getting these amps to sound right. A difference of 1/8" in wire placement can make the difference between an amp that sings, squeels, or sounds dead. The area around the tone controls is particularly tricky because of the different signal phase relationships between the various wires there, the power tube grid wires and negative feedback wires are where you're prone to get oscillation, and the preamp tube wiring can give you RFI issues and the dead amp syndrome.
Bright switch:
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=86890
To get a clean to scream without a massive change in volume you want the bright switch on. If this makes it too bright overall you can always use a long lead to get a bit of capacitance up front.
Then again, you've got a 5K2 OT at the moment so it's going to be really aggressive. Until you've swapped that out for a 6K6 there's no point in making much of a change except to sort out your lead dress and component type choices.
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6865
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=102261
If you're talking about the amp cabinet then it is not that important. What is important is that you've chosen ceramic sockets for V1, which is the worst possible place you could ever use a ceramic socket. Even when Marshall went through their phase of installing ceramics they still specified a micalex in V1 for this very reason, and they're comparatively low gain!
If you take some time to do some background reading here you'll see that Ken only ever built heads because of this reason and people like Glen tend to try to keep the head off the cabinet for recording because of the sensitivity.
You're not trying to encourage interaction between the speakers and the amp, you're actually trying to keep it at bay.
Indeed, take a read of this thread:
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8561
and you'll see that an isolated socket improved the amp.
The critical cabinet is the speaker cabinet, and this amp was voiced specifically for a 4x12 with old G12Ms. If you use V30s they'll tear your head off, and open back cabinets just don't seem to cut it.
I've tried open, closed, 1x12, 2x12 and 4x12 and I always end up with a 4x12 with Scumback M75s (G12M equivalent).
Lead dress is probably the most critical aspect of getting these amps to sound right. A difference of 1/8" in wire placement can make the difference between an amp that sings, squeels, or sounds dead. The area around the tone controls is particularly tricky because of the different signal phase relationships between the various wires there, the power tube grid wires and negative feedback wires are where you're prone to get oscillation, and the preamp tube wiring can give you RFI issues and the dead amp syndrome.
Bright switch:
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=86890
To get a clean to scream without a massive change in volume you want the bright switch on. If this makes it too bright overall you can always use a long lead to get a bit of capacitance up front.
Then again, you've got a 5K2 OT at the moment so it's going to be really aggressive. Until you've swapped that out for a 6K6 there's no point in making much of a change except to sort out your lead dress and component type choices.
Re: Zeus, my First (and on going) Build.
Before you guys get caught up in yet another Joke maybe you want to look here. http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9936
These are the same guys that started the thread over at TGP and this is nothing more than a spoof to them. I guess they are now bringing it here to make further fun of the people who try and give them help. Have fun..... You got me once but not again.
These are the same guys that started the thread over at TGP and this is nothing more than a spoof to them. I guess they are now bringing it here to make further fun of the people who try and give them help. Have fun..... You got me once but not again.
Re: Zeus, my First (and on going) Build.
Dana
I've read the TGP thread, but I'm waiting to see if we're actually going to get anything constructive regarding building Wrecks over here or just more of the same BS.
I fear not.
I've read the TGP thread, but I'm waiting to see if we're actually going to get anything constructive regarding building Wrecks over here or just more of the same BS.
I fear not.
Re: Zeus, my First (and on going) Build.
I doubt there will be anything constructive. After all, the pic shows he used cloth covered wire and you and I know that will never work in a TW if he wants it to sound like a TW.paulster wrote:Dana
I've read the TGP thread, but I'm waiting to see if we're actually going to get anything constructive regarding building Wrecks over here or just more of the same BS.
I fear not.
I'll sit this one out.
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novusoscar
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:12 am
Re: Zeus, my First (and on going) Build.
Thank you for the links and insight, especially the information and link in regards to the V1. It provides a very informative account and a real world experience of how the preamp is affected by vibration.paulster wrote:Trainwreck Express with different styles of music to give you a benchmark:
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6865
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=102261
If you're talking about the amp cabinet then it is not that important. What is important is that you've chosen ceramic sockets for V1, which is the worst possible place you could ever use a ceramic socket. Even when Marshall went through their phase of installing ceramics they still specified a micalex in V1 for this very reason, and they're comparatively low gain!
If you take some time to do some background reading here you'll see that Ken only ever built heads because of this reason and people like Glen tend to try to keep the head off the cabinet for recording because of the sensitivity.
You're not trying to encourage interaction between the speakers and the amp, you're actually trying to keep it at bay.
Indeed, take a read of this thread:
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8561
and you'll see that an isolated socket improved the amp.
The critical cabinet is the speaker cabinet, and this amp was voiced specifically for a 4x12 with old G12Ms. If you use V30s they'll tear your head off, and open back cabinets just don't seem to cut it.
I've tried open, closed, 1x12, 2x12 and 4x12 and I always end up with a 4x12 with Scumback M75s (G12M equivalent).
Lead dress is probably the most critical aspect of getting these amps to sound right. A difference of 1/8" in wire placement can make the difference between an amp that sings, squeels, or sounds dead. The area around the tone controls is particularly tricky because of the different signal phase relationships between the various wires there, the power tube grid wires and negative feedback wires are where you're prone to get oscillation, and the preamp tube wiring can give you RFI issues and the dead amp syndrome.
Bright switch:
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=86890
To get a clean to scream without a massive change in volume you want the bright switch on. If this makes it too bright overall you can always use a long lead to get a bit of capacitance up front.
Then again, you've got a 5K2 OT at the moment so it's going to be really aggressive. Until you've swapped that out for a 6K6 there's no point in making much of a change except to sort out your lead dress and component type choices.
Regards
Travis
Re: Zeus, my First (and on going) Build.
When I started the project it was more about building an amp that suited my personal taste. I believe an amp has the ability to reflect one's artistic taste and therefore amp building is more of an art rather than just copying one's design. I researched several amps before chosing this as a base design and found KF's designs to be the closest thing to suit my personal taste as an artist. However there is still work to be done.
Regards,
Travis[/quote]
A note of caution to you. You are still writing in a style that talks down to us as if we are learning something with your rambling on nonsense.
It is disturbing to me that you think we just copy the KF TW design and that you therefore have not. That is quite obvious from the photo. If you even took one short look around this site you would not have made such a remark. Very few people are making clones of the TW. Each builder has put their own spin on the circuit.
You would better serve your amp project by shutting up and listening for awhile. When I first started I read and read while studing the schematic, layout and BOM. Then I asked dumb questions but not once did I tell these great builders how to build a frigging TW amp? Are you serious?
Mark
Regards,
Travis[/quote]
A note of caution to you. You are still writing in a style that talks down to us as if we are learning something with your rambling on nonsense.
It is disturbing to me that you think we just copy the KF TW design and that you therefore have not. That is quite obvious from the photo. If you even took one short look around this site you would not have made such a remark. Very few people are making clones of the TW. Each builder has put their own spin on the circuit.
You would better serve your amp project by shutting up and listening for awhile. When I first started I read and read while studing the schematic, layout and BOM. Then I asked dumb questions but not once did I tell these great builders how to build a frigging TW amp? Are you serious?
Mark
Re: Zeus, my First (and on going) Build.
Travis and Jeff
Tone is something we are always trying to achieve in music. The amp designers and musicians that are revered here and in the world at large are all individuals who have been obsessed with finding their tone.
Tone translates to how we communicate with others and the tone n which you post here and well as TGP is what prompts my comments today.
I conciser myself a newcomer to TAG having lurked here for over a year and studying the work of those who know far more than I do. I have nothing but gratitude for the energy, time, openness to sharing that so many have contributed to amp garage. In my reading I've never found posters to be inconsiderate or mean (well may be a few) to newcomers or those struggling with their early builds.
I invite to both to really think about the splash you've made at TGP before you bring it here. There are over 500 posts there not praising you or encouraging you but rather criticizing you and questioning your character as people. Is this really what you want? I for one would rather not see the drama of TGP come to amp garage.
It all comes down to tone. Respect, humility, the ability to ask for help all pay off in that others with knowledge to share will take you seriously and offer their time to help. Self grandiosity and the dissertations regarding you qualifications (Jeff) and your unique artistry (Travis) are initially humorous but ultimately annoying and time consuming. We all slow down to look at a car wreck and then wish we hadn't.
Kieth Haring was and is one of the most respected and successful graphic artists in the past 100 years. Haring started by doing graffiti in the NYC subways. Multiple arrests and five years later the NY art community had recognized his work and he was in the Metropolitan with a base price of his work at $10,000 for an 8" by 10". Not because he said he was great but rather because the world saw his work and deemed it great.
Wallace Black Elk a Lakota elder and great grand son to Black Elk of "Black Elk Speaks" (a definitive work on native American society) was asked in an interview what he thought of those non-native Americans who were practicing native American spirituality. He responded:
"talk is nothing, put a man alone and naked in the desert and you will see his medicine"
Think about how you want to be recieved.
BTW Trainwrecks are GIRLS!!!!
Just my rant of the day, take what you like, leave the rest
Eric
Tone is something we are always trying to achieve in music. The amp designers and musicians that are revered here and in the world at large are all individuals who have been obsessed with finding their tone.
Tone translates to how we communicate with others and the tone n which you post here and well as TGP is what prompts my comments today.
I conciser myself a newcomer to TAG having lurked here for over a year and studying the work of those who know far more than I do. I have nothing but gratitude for the energy, time, openness to sharing that so many have contributed to amp garage. In my reading I've never found posters to be inconsiderate or mean (well may be a few) to newcomers or those struggling with their early builds.
I invite to both to really think about the splash you've made at TGP before you bring it here. There are over 500 posts there not praising you or encouraging you but rather criticizing you and questioning your character as people. Is this really what you want? I for one would rather not see the drama of TGP come to amp garage.
It all comes down to tone. Respect, humility, the ability to ask for help all pay off in that others with knowledge to share will take you seriously and offer their time to help. Self grandiosity and the dissertations regarding you qualifications (Jeff) and your unique artistry (Travis) are initially humorous but ultimately annoying and time consuming. We all slow down to look at a car wreck and then wish we hadn't.
Kieth Haring was and is one of the most respected and successful graphic artists in the past 100 years. Haring started by doing graffiti in the NYC subways. Multiple arrests and five years later the NY art community had recognized his work and he was in the Metropolitan with a base price of his work at $10,000 for an 8" by 10". Not because he said he was great but rather because the world saw his work and deemed it great.
Wallace Black Elk a Lakota elder and great grand son to Black Elk of "Black Elk Speaks" (a definitive work on native American society) was asked in an interview what he thought of those non-native Americans who were practicing native American spirituality. He responded:
"talk is nothing, put a man alone and naked in the desert and you will see his medicine"
Think about how you want to be recieved.
BTW Trainwrecks are GIRLS!!!!
Just my rant of the day, take what you like, leave the rest
Eric