[QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

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Bombacaototal
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[QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

Post by Bombacaototal »

Wondering what is everyone's opinion of which one to use for a 2x12 cabinet

The poplar (a.k.a hardwood) is much lighter weight than the Ply. It is closer to Pine but harder and dents very easily.

Both have different acoustic properties.

I own a Plywood cab and the guy who built it for me convinced me out of Poplar when I commissioned it. Now I am planning on getting a second 2x12 and wondering if I should go Poplar this time
Last edited by Bombacaototal on Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JazzGuitarGimp
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Re: [QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

Post by JazzGuitarGimp »

I had originally posted a different comment here that would have opened the discussion up to other varieties of wood besides the solid poplar and birch ply that Bomacaototal wants to discuss. So I have deleted my original comment, and I am going to start another thread for my questions, with my apologies to Bombacaototal.

Cheers,
Lou
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Phil_S
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Re: [QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

Post by Phil_S »

I don't know about the acoustic properties of poplar, but I wouldn't use it unless I could get it cheaper than pine. As you note, it's soft and it dents. I think you'd be better off with pine.
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Re: [QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

Post by Bombacaototal »

Seems like Fender guys swear by pine cabinets, but Marshall guys think baltic birch plywood makes good cabs.

I was speaking to Alessandro http://www.alessandro-products.com who does John Mayer's cabinets and he swears by Poplar. He said "Poplar is significantly better than any plywood sonically."

But he seems one of very few builders with this option which is why I was curious for others opinions

The guy who built my cabinet said "Poplar isn't a great sounding material, it is a weak wood and honestly birch ply is much nicer sounding and stronger"

I browsed some older posts and this is what I gathered
Structo comment: My experience with poplar is it doesn't take stain well at all.

Dano-rator comment: the elusive material that the originals were allegedly constructed from. The cabinet is half oak core with cedar veneer and half poplar core with mahogany veneer.

Max comment: In an interview published in a German magazine at the end of the eighties Alexander Dumble once told that he generally doesn't use baltic birch plywood because in his opinion it's not well suited for the construction of speaker cabinets. Alexander Dumble doesn't like "dead" cabinets but he prefers to intentionally build a speaker cabinet that has a special kind of "tone" or "sound". That's why he didn't use "dead" materials like balic birch plywood or particle board etc. for the construction of his speaker cabintes.

qtone comment: I stood over Stevie Rays Dumble cab the back was off.
It looked like baltic birch to me.

Telentubes comment: I've build a few cabs with poplar ply, because it is light, affordable, and Bag End uses it.
And here from some non TAG sources
Poplar wood cabinets will sound much different than birch wood cabinets because of difference in density between the two types of wood

Solid wood has several disadvantages in speaker cabinets. It is not as dimensionally stable. That is, it expands and contracts with temperature and humidity. Over time, this leads to the wood cracking. It is not as strong as plywood. It is lighter than either plywood or any of the particle boards, but has a lower strength to weight ratio than plywood. One good whack could cause it to break. Proper bracing reduces that chance, but bracing increases weight and expense, and I imagine reducing those is the main reason for going to poplar in the first place.

I have found that hardwoods as far as guitar cabs are concerned is not the best choice for tone. It has a harshness to it and sometimes a very flat responses.

Pine and Poplar are more resonant woods and tends to provide a more open, airy and resonant tone. Baltic Birch Ply, Italian Poplar Ply, or any other marine-grade plywood tends to provide a much less resonant cabinet with a stiffer sound.

The trouble with pine, or any other material that resonates a lot, is that it's going to accentuate certain frequencies and it's tough to predict which ones before the cabinet is built. It can make speaker selection tough too.

I've built a couple of my 1x12 cabinets, which are normally Baltic birch, out of pine. The pine cabinets had a lot of upper bass/lower mids compared to the Baltic birch, right in the 200-400Hz range. I felt they sounded a little "boxy" and one-dimensional.

If you're not building a closed back (sealed) cabinet, the wood is less important. With an open back, you also need not worry about the dimensions as much. Pine is common not because of the tone, but because of the price and the finished weight. Most people do agree that it provides some pleasant resonance, though. Baltic birch plywood is a favorite mostly because it has many more plys than the cheaper common stuff. The only real advantage of this is that plywood typically does not claim to be 'voidless', aircraft ply being the exception.

Most plywoods have voids in them due to chunks being missing from the layers at various points. They are just glued up with these pieces missing, and you find them on the edges of your cut pieces later. Because baltic birch plywood has so many layers, some small voids are of no consequence sonically to your cabinet. Larger, thicker voids in cheap plywood may result in a cabinet that sounds like it's rattling at certain frequencies, and you can never fix it.

Pine is, of course, voidless. Plenty of people who built homebuilt cabs use the wide glued-up pine boards from Home Depot. They seem to work just fine if you choose to go that route rather than the baltic birch ply.


cabinet wood doesnt make ad ifference so much in TONE, but how the tone travels throughout the room. the BEST cabinet wood ever is pine. 4/4 pine is incredible to build cabinets out of, its not easy to work with as its ultra soft, but you will love the tone you get out of it, plywood is okay in a sense that it does not vibrate, so you just get straight speaker, but if the cabinet vibrates along with the speaker, it will sound pretty rad.

i have an open back 1X12" made out of poplar. i've struggled to get it to sound good over the years. i don't know if the construction, or the design, or the material is to blame (probably a combination of all three). it has a weird nasally quality in the mids that i have to battle with.
Interesting info from http://www.tt-cabs.com/engl/?Tech/FAQ
And what about the wood and its impact on the sound ?

Cabinet walls built out of thick and stiff wood (e.g. birch) will be less resonant, i.e. less prone to vibrate with the sound waves, than walls made of thinner or lighter kinds of wood (such as poplar).
The resulting sound impression is that rigid materials give cabinets a more defined and also more focused projection than softer materials, which in turn exhibit a more expansive, three-dimensional feel and softer-edged bass response.
The greatest advantage of low-density versus high-density wood – poplar and birch, in our example – certainly is reduced weight, which makes the poplar cab much more portable and easier on your back! It is also the main reason why many of our customers choose poplar cabinets.
Last edited by Bombacaototal on Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Bombacaototal
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Re: [QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

Post by Bombacaototal »

interesting article: http://www.guitarplayer.com/lessons/101 ... nets/49187
The guitar community has a major predisposition against anything made from plywood. If we can afford better, we don’t want our acoustic or electric guitars to be made from laminated woods, right? That thinking seems to carry over to the arena of combo and speaker cabinets, too, where the cab made from solid wood—commonly pine—is often considered king of the heap, tone-wise. But does a solidpine cab really deliver optimum sonic goodness in all situations?

Solid-pine combo cabs very likely earned their legendary status thanks to Fender’s use of the wood for its “tweed” models of the 1950s and Tolex-covered amps of the ’60s and ’70s. Gibson and other great makers of early American tube amps also frequently used solid pine, or sometimes other sturdy softwoods with comparable weight, strength, and density, and plenty of new makers follow suit. The sonic splendor of many of these amps themselves has contributed to the pine mystique: a tweed Bassman sounds phenomenal, and it has a pine cab—ipso facto pine cabs must sound phenomenal. That said, a great tweed amp in good condition would sound pretty stunning through any decent cab, so we need to isolate the construction of the speaker cab from the unquestioned glories of the amps that we play through them in order to come to some understanding of the former’s contribution to the tone.

The wood from which a cab is made plays a significant role in determining its sound, and a selection of cabs made to the same dimensions and loaded with the same speakers, but constructed from different types of wood, will all sound subtly different. Well-dried solid pine tends to contribute resonance, warmth, and a lightly furry edge to your tone, which can all be a part of that thick, juicy “tweed tone.” When such resonance works with the amp it can sound glorious, making your tone feel extremely tactile and alive. If, on the other hand, it works against it—producing unflattering resonant peaks—it might contribute to a slightly blurry or dissonant tone. Generally speaking, though, a wellbuilt pine cab typically sounds very good, but it’s a lively kind of good, with a lot going on and a tendency to throw itself in with the core sound of the speaker.

A good plywood cab, on the other hand, has plenty of desirable properties working for it, too. The best such cabs are generally made from 11-ply Baltic birch, which is dense, rigid, and has a good bending strength before breaking. The firmness of such cabs translates to a tight, clear, punchy tone—relatively speaking—which benefits clarity, articulation, and the ability to push the sound at you. Such cabs tend to deliver a more uncolored picture of the sound of the speaker itself, although they do toss their own resonance into the brew. Vintage Vox and Marshall cabs, to name just two, were made from Baltic birch ply, so this wood has long earned kudos in the tone stakes.

Cabinets made from poor or indifferent varieties of plywood, or from MDF or particleboard, can often sound somewhat dead or dull (although with the right speakers they might also surprise you). These are likely to be cheaper options, and while occasionally passable, they can make good comparative examples of how any cab is more than “just a box to hold the speakers,” and will likely sound a little inferior up against a quality pine or Baltic-birch cab.

Ultimately, though, solid-pine cabs aren’t inherently superior to high-quality plywood cabs: each just presents different characteristics, which can be selected to enhance the type of performance you seek from your amp and guitar. Be aware, too, that subtle or significant differences in other aspects of cab construction—the depth and overall dimensions, the stiffness of the speaker baffle and how it’s affixed, whether the cab is open- or closed-backed, or the way the whole box is put together—will often have as much affect on its sound as the wood that it’s made from.
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Re: [QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

Post by Bombacaototal »

I can share a bit of the experience from the article

Over the weekend I tried a 1960 Bassman Tweed which was very boomy which is this case the frequencies were working "against it". The problem is that the floor rattle and boomy sound would take over any other interesting aspects of the sound

The 1962 concert I tried on the same shop sounded a million times better in my opinion although I am not sure it used the same wood
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Re: [QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

Post by M Fowler »

Wood working popular and aspen are superior to pine.

Sonically for a speaker cab I have no facts since my only popular speaker cab was never finished it is sitting around taking up space.

However, my theory is that popular would perform as good as pine.

Mark
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Re: [QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

Post by rp »

Modern pine isn't what it used to be, and not much like the stuff Fender used way back, though it makes little difference in an open back, the baffle thickness and size matters much more IME. In Europe at least in Italy the pine is like f'ing balsawood - must be like the rumored cloned chicken with eight legs and four breasts. Probably GMO that grows faster than bamboo - ugh. You see a lot of 'solid' pine here that is actually composite and looks like maple cutting boards. The poplar here seems a bit more substantial, for now. Pretty soon if you want non-engineered lumber you'll have to go NOS like tubes and parts, dumpster diving for lumber, what a PITA the modern world is. Could be worse, at least there's no ivory or rosewood in guitar amps. Chestnut is a pretty cool wood here, more like what pine used to be. That would be fun to try, would be interesting for a Tele body.

Two tips, Shellac/Bin/Enamelac the knots ESPECIALLY if you are doing blonde. In fact if you shellac the whole thing your glue will spread easier, thinner, quicker - helpful if tying out hide glue. I shellac the inside of cabs I build to hopefully prevent warping. It doesn't, pine cabs always wobble on the ground :evil:
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Re: [QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

Post by Geeze »

For a low cost wood poplar is a great wood to work with compared to pine. No knots, significantly less warp and cup and easily obtained in wider widths than pine. I've built 19 solid wood cabs over the last few years and have had no issues with dimensional shifting.

I have an issue with the whole 'tone' from wood that gets bandied about - little or no scientific data or rigor in testing - same speakers [not model - the same freaking ones!] same atmospheric conditions, frequency analyser, etc etc.

BTW - the boomy Bassman probably has different filtering - I had a 1987 'adjusted' for this very issue.

Russ
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Re: [QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

Post by Bombacaototal »

Geeze wrote:For a low cost wood poplar is a great wood to work with compared to pine. No knots, significantly less warp and cup and easily obtained in wider widths than pine. I've built 19 solid wood cabs over the last few years and have had no issues with dimensional shifting.

I have an issue with the whole 'tone' from wood that gets bandied about - little or no scientific data or rigor in testing - same speakers [not model - the same freaking ones!] same atmospheric conditions, frequency analyser, etc etc.

BTW - the boomy Bassman probably has different filtering - I had a 1987 'adjusted' for this very issue.

Russ
Thanks for sharing your experience. For me, after the research I have narrowed it to Ply ("dead") vs Poplar ("ressonant"). I am still not sure which is the "best" approach although I like my 2x12 Ply but have never tried a Poplar one

I agree that little sccientific data has been done about the wood tones in cabs.
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Re: [QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

Post by Bombacaototal »

Would anyone be able to describe tonal characteristics of each wood? Which is brighter, with is darker, which has more lower mids?
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Re: [QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

Post by Geeze »

Bombacaototal wrote:Would anyone be able to describe tonal characteristics of each wood? Which is brighter, with is darker, which has more lower mids?
Any responses that don't have scientific data and test rigor are going to be subjective opinion. Too many variables just within the wood structure / density of each species and the individual drivers to make any verifiable claims. I've built cabs out of 10+ different species of wood and plywood and I've never said 'Holy sh*t! That one is brighter [or darker] than any of the others!' Pine, aspen, plywood, poplar, African mahogany/zebra wood, white oak, purple heart / pecan, paduak, curly maple, birdseye maple & cherry. From fingernail dent soft to holy crap hard.

I just look for beauty and don't sweat the minutia.

Russ
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Re: [QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

Post by Bombacaototal »

Geeze wrote:
Bombacaototal wrote:Would anyone be able to describe tonal characteristics of each wood? Which is brighter, with is darker, which has more lower mids?
Any responses that don't have scientific data and test rigor are going to be subjective opinion. Too many variables just within the wood structure / density of each species and the individual drivers to make any verifiable claims. I've built cabs out of 10+ different species of wood and plywood and I've never said 'Holy sh*t! That one is brighter [or darker] than any of the others!' Pine, aspen, plywood, poplar, African mahogany/zebra wood, white oak, purple heart / pecan, paduak, curly maple, birdseye maple & cherry. From fingernail dent soft to holy crap hard.

I just look for beauty and don't sweat the minutia.

Russ
Thanks a lot for the feedback
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Re: [QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

Post by C Moore »

Geeze wrote:
Bombacaototal wrote:Would anyone be able to describe tonal characteristics of each wood? Which is brighter, with is darker, which has more lower mids?
Any responses that don't have scientific data and test rigor are going to be subjective opinion. Too many variables just within the wood structure / density of each species and the individual drivers to make any verifiable claims. I've built cabs out of 10+ different species of wood and plywood and I've never said 'Holy sh*t! That one is brighter [or darker] than any of the others!' Pine, aspen, plywood, poplar, African mahogany/zebra wood, white oak, purple heart / pecan, paduak, curly maple, birdseye maple & cherry. From fingernail dent soft to holy crap hard.

I just look for beauty and don't sweat the minutia.

Russ
I thought he was just being humorous.....
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Re: [QUESTION] Birch Plywood vs Poplar vs Pine

Post by rogb »

My JCM800 50w combo is in a pine 10" floorboard cab with 3/4" MDF baffle . I'm not sure why I did it like that but I did, it sounded awesome then, clean or cranked. It still does today.
Nice speaker - G12-65 Heritage, is that the secret?
Dunno, but if you play good it sounds good, likewise if you play bad... :D
Like the man said, don't sweat the little stuff. Play from your soul and all will be well.
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