Solid wire vs Stranded?

[bluesfendermanblues]

r..Don't mean to sound like a jerk!
Hope this Helps!!

Tony

Ok thanks..

....btw, you never sound like a jerk.

[Kregg]

The way I see it, if an experienced amp builder cares enough about the specific type of wire they use (including red wire covering ), then they're also going to take extra measures to tune the amp right before they sell it. Their belief was in their wire, the truth was in their effort.

[glassaddict]

Although not objectivly scientific this is an interesting video which relates to the topic somewhat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9HrYAyVItY

[Aurora]

I just don't bother to check the prices of that cable....
- but here's another "magic potion"... you vipe the outside of your amp, and loudspeaker, too ........
http://www.ennemoser.com/th8.html
( the english explanation is smeared out in between.. )

On a rather more serious foot, though..... - these discussions will never end, quite simply because noone is capable of producing rock-solid proof, neither for, nor against, that will satisfy the aye- and nay-sayers of both camps. The psycho-acoustical aspects of things are also interesting - if you were the one to just have kicked out 5000$ to by two 6' lengths of "magic" loudspeaker cable - how deep will your self-scrutination have to go for you to admit that it wasn't really much different to the two lengths of Cat-5 cable that was "last year's" revellation?
The mechanical aspect of solid vs stranded in an environment of shock and vibrations are undisputable. So are also the merits of silver coating and skin effect at UHF and higher freq. In the engineering community, there is an overwhelming consensus that skin effects are non existent at audio frequencies. Silver may have a positive cosmetic effect, and the marketing value are maybe not to be skimped at, but silver is not unproblematic in itself, in a lightly acidic environment, like in high humidity and city smog. Silver and even better gold, are often used in audio and other connectors, but that has nothing to do with skin effects.

In the end, we are left with the old saying, - "to each his own" - I have actually tried some of these claims in HiFi, without results, and noone has ever produced proof that solid wire makes a sonic difference at audio.
On the contrary, several soild scientific tests have showed no difference at all - there may have been audible differences, but these have so far been related to variances in capacitance and inductance, which may have an impact, but hardly in lengths of 2-3 inches.

Lastly - in the HiFi crowd, all sorts of claims about cables have been flourishing for decades now. Some years ago, a danish HiFi mag' did some investigations of power cables that was credited with magical powers from several mag reviewers. One of these cables had a moulded unit at the amp end, that allegedly contained the said magic. The cable was brought to an engineering institute and X-rayed. There was nothing inside the magical "potion" box.......... nothing! ... but the wires going straight through........

[Structo]

Cool!

A multivowel varnish!

Now Tag can get the vowel sound on any amp simply by painting the chassis with this varnish.

155 Euros for 50ml which is $110 for 50ml which is 1.67 ounces.

$65 per ounce.

A bargain for better tone.

This is almost as good as those $350 wooden Hi Fi knobs that improved tone.

[Kregg]

Great ... now I can get more from my wah-wah!

[thyx]

HiFi and audio engineers have been debating the differences in sonic quality between these two types of wires for years..Ken Fisher being one of them Many point out that braid-stranded wire is preferable due to its increased surface area...

...which would tend to point to a skin effect. Why else would surface area matter?

.. I can't give away all my work I will say try to get it solid silver plated copper...

...which would enhance any skin effect, as silver is a better conductor than copper.

In the engineering community, there is an overwhelming consensus that skin effects are non existent at audio frequencies.

Which engineering community would that be? There are many.

To say the skinning effect exists at UHF and higher frequencies, but not at audio frequencies, is to mix subjective opinion with fact. If they exist at UHF, they MUST also exist at audio...though to a lesser degree (as the effect generally decreases with the frequency).

That video was pretty good, though I'd like to see what happens to the multiple strand version when made much longer...though the scope might still not be able to show a difference, I think your ears could. Tests like this, after all, are designed to prove the producers point.

[supermagoo]

several years and build throughout 2 preamps.
with solid wire version I could hear more clearly and fast.
I could hear the stranded slightly covered sound.

[Houseboundhound]

Several years ago I used to haunt the surplus bins at Rockwell Int. in Dallas, TX and I chatted with one of their engineers who was also poking around. He told me that the only reason that Teflon insulated wire was silver coated was because of a bad chemical interaction when copper was directly coated with Teflon. That's why you won't find non-silver coated teflon wire. Now obviously you can shove a copper wire into teflon tubing but that's not extruded.

A few thoughts about skin effect. At Rockwell they had a lot of Litz wiring which is mega multi stranded wire with each hair-thin strand individually insulated. Some of it was as thick as a garden hose. Now that's some serious skin! Probably used for pumping mega watts of microwaves.

I've still got a spool of some smaller gauge Litz wire that I've always wanted to wind a Tele pickup with. Anybody ever tried that? My guess is that it would have a high frequency peak that only bats could hear.

[TubeGod]

"the only reason that Teflon insulated wire was silver coated was because of a bad chemical interaction when copper was directly coated with Teflon. That's why you won't find non-silver coated teflon wire"


KIMBER KABLE has been selling Teflon-coated plain copper wire for decades.

[Structo]

Didn't the Teflon insulated wire came out of the aircraft industry and NASA

They needed a tough jacket for pulling wires for miles (well sort of).

The higher temperature rating is also a plus for aircraft and solder junkies who let the iron wander.

It could be that there was an early reaction between the wire and jacket but most assuredly, that is a past problem.

I always liked the way silver wire solders, the solder just melts like butter into it, you know when it's good.

I like using stranded wire because I think it is a little more forgiving as when you are troubleshooting, moving wires around to see connections.
Maybe solid sounds better but I like the durability of stranded.

I like to use mostly 20ga stranded Teflon on the preamp and inverter.

The only problem I ever had with it is when I strip the end off.

I did get some decent strippers and now it's a joy to work with.

There was a guy on eBay that sold stranded Teflon, can't remember his handle but it was for a decent price.

[Jerryz1963]

I have rocket scientist friend helping me with my amp build.. Really he used to work for NASA, but he is a little cynical about musicians and tube amps.

He says there is no reason for cloth covered solid strand wire. He thinks stranded wire is best in all applications.

What is the advantage of solid wire?

Electronically speaking, higher frequencies tend to travel on the OUTSIDE of the wire. It's called "skin effect." Tesla demonstrated this at a world's fair way back when by hooking himself up to high frequency, much to the shock and awe of the crowd. If I recall correctly, his hair was standing up and his body had somewhat of a coronal glow of sorts. Anyway, that's part of the explanation for why microwave-frequency devices use waveguides and not traditional conductors. At audio frequencies, I don't think it really makes a difference. I have used solid "hookup" wire quite a bit and the amps sound fine. welding cable is stranded for the flexibility, otherwise a solid strand would be just fine.

[vibratoking]

I've posted this in the past:

http://consumerist.com/2008/03/03/do-co ... er-cables/

I guess it's a vote in some backhanded way for solid core. If only they tested with a stranded coat hanger...then we'd all have the answer.

[gui_tarzan]

This is an interesting thread, but here's my take; Tone is subjective. A big percentage of it is also in the player's fingers and technique.

I use both stranded and solid, have since I started working with electronic projects back in the mid-70s. I used to have exceptional hearing until both of my eardrums burst (ten minutes apart) seven or eight years ago and since then I've lost my tolerance for ultra-high frequencies and too much sound pressure in the mid-range. Now I prefer quality tone at low levels. If there is an audible difference in the two types of wire, I can't hear it.

So my take is if you like how it sounds to your ears that's all that matters. If your customers like it (and can tell the difference) that's a bonus. If you prefer 99.9% pure copper, oxygen-free wire with silver plating that's fine. If you prefer the cheapest wire you can get your hands on and it sounds good, that's fine too. I like a little "mojo" in my guitar tone, a little dirt if you will. If I wanted a hi-fi sound I'd listen to a hi-fi.

By the way, I have a BS too and it means very little unless you have practical experience in the field. That's where the real learning takes place.

[Satchmoeddie-II]

I don't care if he wired the space shuttle by himself, a death ray, whatever. Various types of wire have their designated places. Guitar amps are not very demanding as to what they need to work right. Materials engineers and electrical engineers have, in some cases, developed special wires for special uses. Cloth covered wire is for cosmetic use, only, in guitar amps. Silver tinned wire will actually make an amp sound brighter. A "skin effect" creates a low value capacitance that acts like a high pass filter. I actually have some NASA/USAF surplus wire. It is tinned copper PTFE insulated with a small amount of flux in the wire, so it tins up beautifully. The only thing that makes it special is thin PTFE insulation and a lower weight per foot / size factor. THAT IS IT. It is lighter in weight, but it was not used around the engines. It is Semi hi temp insulation, low weight stranded wire, nothing super fancy. Down by the hot parts they used some sort of alloy with silicon teflon and fiberglass. It is amazing stuff, but very thick and very expensive. Solid wire is specified for some fire alarms & life safety systems alarms in some buildings. Engineers found it takes solid wire longer to fail in high heat, or so they say. I like 20 gauge solid core wire zip cord for heater wires. It keeps a nice tight uniform twist that looks neat as a pin. Good luck finding any. I don't remember where I got mine. Solid wire will break easier, if it is bent back and forth. In all honesty common tin tinned stranded copper wire is your best bet. 300 volt PVC insulation is fine, until you get into 200 watt + amps using over 600 volts. I prefer 600 volt insulation, but we are usually not running much current through the wire, so I have rarely seen 300 VW wire fail. The make scores of insulation types: PVC, PTFE, thermoplastic, crosslinked polymer, silicon, rubber, or teflon glass and teflon over silicon insulation or rayon, cotton, silicon, polyolefin, polypropylene, or ???, and combinations of any of those. If you can keep the soldering iron away from your other wires, old cheap PVC is just fine. If not go with the teflon PTFE stuff, but do not waste your money on silver tinning or solid silver. That stuff is for audiophools or people who like to show off how much money they can throw away. TGGT over silicon is great if your amp is taking a trip to the sun, or if you are using 4000 volt plate cap RADAR tubes to make a 1000 watt Champ. I have seen it done, but am not making any plans to try it myself.