Has anyone seen this Dumble before

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pottedplant
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Has anyone seen this Dumble before

Post by pottedplant »

Hi everyone I'm new to the board, I've been lurking a while and am planning to build an ODS in the very near future. I have an Amp Nation chassis and an EVM12S to start my build off.

I am curious if anyone has seen this dumble before because I am fascinated by the sound of it:
green ods combo.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/CXSUJQctbAZ/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CZFZws0v1Lj/

I assume it's an HRM and the owner says it's from the 2000's. I've NEVER seen pics of this particular amp before in my hours of looking up ODS's and the owner is from the New Orleans area, he just recently acquired it from a place called Scruff's in Texas I believe. Anyhow, this tonality is one that I really enjoy so should I be funneling my build towards an HRM? I've been studying the #124 mostly because of how well it's been examined and am wondering are there HRM amps that have been fleshed out in similar fashion? Would I be able to build the 124 and convert it to something more along the lines (HRM) of this little combo in the future?

I'm sure you guys get this all the time, "new dumble build what should I do" type of posts. Hopefully it's not an eyeroll for you guys :)

Also if anyone would like to comment on the sound of this particular dumble in context to others that would be pretty useful for me to figure out how it sounds and what to realistically expect. This thing has so much harmonic content and I don't know what I'm really hearing? Is it the guitar or what? It sounds like it's on the verge of feeding back and there are a lot of overtones. Is this what I can expect if I build any dumble? What should my expectations be?

I've always thought the Dumble sound was very saxophone-like (a smooth dull but vocal kind of tone) but perhaps my understanding of this has been mostly due to the typical "listen to Robben and Carlton" suggestions one usually encounters when asking about the sound of a dumble. I feel like that's really more just hearing how they set the tone stack than what Dumbles are known for. I've read that the earlier ones are more raw sounding and thus kinda negating my conception that they are "sax-like"?

Is what defines an ODS more about how the harmonics stand out when the note is held out? That's been my most recent understanding of the sound of an ODS. Just tons of harmonics and "bloom". I find myself listening for this a lot more now when I play amps, including my own 1965 Fender Pro Reverb which has a ton of harmonic content that I never noticed before.

Anyhow, I hope that wasn't too hard to read. I've stayed up all night reading about transformers so forgive me if it's a little incoherent!
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ijedouglas
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Re: Has anyone seen this Dumble before

Post by ijedouglas »

I am not 100% sure but when I started building my BluesMaster I was pointed to a few clips of this amp from a well respected builder, so I believe that's what it is. I finished up my build a couple of weeks back and it is a super fun amp to play (https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12875)

The amp is definitely more on the rock side with the Marshall tonestack and PI. The clean breaks up super early and they can get bass heavy (although mine came out pretty well balanced). It is a little step up in complexity from something like a #124 with the added HRM tonestack.
Ian
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pottedplant
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Re: Has anyone seen this Dumble before

Post by pottedplant »

It's a great sounding amp, I've noticed that when Carter plays it he has the presence CRANKED. What exactly is a BluesMaster? Do you have any clips of yours? I've been scouring the internet for transformers and filter caps. It's practically impossible to find 300uF caps at 300 or 500 volts. I've been modeling the filter cap board I have from Amplified Nation in a 3D modeling program to kinda flesh out some substituion ideas. I've come up with 6 100uF's stacked like a pyramid haha.
filter cap maximum size limits.png
These are theoretical maximum length and width to fit 6 on the board in such a configuration. I don't think there are any caps out there that fit that dimensionality but at least I know what my upper limits are for this particular idea. It's useful to have a 3D model so you can see and have hard measurements in front of you to come up with creative solutions I think.
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talbany
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Re: Has anyone seen this Dumble before

Post by talbany »

Peter Lerche's Bluesmaster
6L6 tubes. Serial no 0153. No skyliner delivered 91/92
Speaker Cab/ Eminence Texas Heat 12" speaker in a semi-open cabinet



Sonny Landreth's Bluesmaster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf2k7WpkIxQ
. What exactly is a BluesMaster?
Bluesmaster Rev6 (1).jpg
https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12875

Tony
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" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
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martin manning
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Re: Has anyone seen this Dumble before

Post by martin manning »

pottedplant wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:10 pmI've been scouring the internet for transformers and filter caps. It's practically impossible to find 300uF caps at 300 or 500 volts.
Snap-in caps at 300-330u 400V would be fine, 30mm D x 40mm H. Just need to drill a few holes in your board.
jcsifu
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Re: Has anyone seen this Dumble before

Post by jcsifu »

talbany wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:30 pm Peter Lerche's Bluesmaster
6L6 tubes. Serial no 0153. No skyliner delivered 91/92
Speaker Cab/ Eminence Texas Heat 12" speaker in a semi-open cabinet





Tony
I really like Peter Lerche's tone's in this video. What tone stack is this?
talbany
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Re: Has anyone seen this Dumble before

Post by talbany »

I really like Peter Lerche's tone's in this video. What tone stack is this?
Bluesmaster is basically an HRM model O.D.S w/ Marshall style output section and tone stack (AFAIK it has no formal name) We refer to it as having a "Bluesmaster stack" :) it also has a different P.A.B called "Mega boost"

Tony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
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pottedplant
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Re: Has anyone seen this Dumble before

Post by pottedplant »

talbany wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:30 pm Peter Lerche's Bluesmaster
6L6 tubes. Serial no 0153. No skyliner delivered 91/92
Speaker Cab/ Eminence Texas Heat 12" speaker in a semi-open cabinet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap6odoC4itw

Sonny Landreth's Bluesmaster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf2k7WpkIxQ
. What exactly is a BluesMaster?

Bluesmaster Rev6 (1).jpg

https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12875

Tony
Right on, thanks for sharing those with me they sound amazing. I am no expert of course but to me those amps dont seem to sound like the green one in the clips I posted. How do we know the green combo is a bluesmaster?

I'm not an expert and I'm here to learn so keep that in mind if I ask any questions :D. I'm just trying to navigate this dumble world haha. I've also got almost no clue how to tell which parts are what. I see you edited your post to leave out the fact that component choice is super important (??). I can see the resistors in your layout but how do you know what parts are what? How does one tell "oh these are x resistors". Are there some that I should know about that dumbles sound best with? There's a vast sea of component choices out there and I am in dire need of some guidance haha. I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually but it can't hurt to ask right? No question is a wrong question in my humble opinion.

Just for the record, this will be the first amp I've ever built but I have a good bit of experience with my 65 BF fender pro reverb and working on a few amps here and there for people. I have a beginner/medium (probably selling myself short a little) understanding of how amps work and i'm always open to learning more :)
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martin manning
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Re: Has anyone seen this Dumble before

Post by martin manning »

pottedplant wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:32 amI'm not an expert and I'm here to learn so keep that in mind if I ask any questions :D. I'm just trying to navigate this dumble world haha. I've also got almost no clue how to tell which parts are what. I see you edited your post to leave out the fact that component choice is super important (??). I can see the resistors in your layout but how do you know what parts are what? How does one tell "oh these are x resistors". Are there some that I should know about that dumbles sound best with? There's a vast sea of component choices out there and I am in dire need of some guidance haha. I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually but it can't hurt to ask right? No question is a wrong question in my humble opinion.
My recommendation on component selections is to use new good quality parts, and pay close attention to the values and the materials they are made from. By that I mean use metal film resistors in the locations they are called for, carbon or metal film elsewhere, and capacitors with the specified dielectric type and construction. Certain brands have traditionally been used, such as Dale RN65D resistors for plate loads, and Sprague Orange Drop film/foil for the coupling and tone caps. They are currently in production, and I would stick with those. A brands, they have been bought and sold over the decades, and may not have exactly the same construction as in the past, but the differences are negligible, IMO.
talbany
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Re: Has anyone seen this Dumble before

Post by talbany »

Right on, thanks for sharing those with me they sound amazing. I am no expert of course but to me those amps dont seem to sound like the green one in the clips I posted. How do we know the green combo is a bluesmaster?

I'm not an expert and I'm here to learn so keep that in mind if I ask any questions :D. I'm just trying to navigate this dumble world haha. I've also got almost no clue how to tell which parts are what. I see you edited your post to leave out the fact that component choice is super important (??). I can see the resistors in your layout but how do you know what parts are what? How does one tell "oh these are x resistors". Are there some that I should know about that dumbles sound best with? There's a vast sea of component choices out there and I am in dire need of some guidance haha. I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually but it can't hurt to ask right? No question is a wrong question in my humble opinion.

Just for the record, this will be the first amp I've ever built but I have a good bit of experience with my 65 BF fender pro reverb and working on a few amps here and there for people. I have a beginner/medium (probably selling myself short a little) understanding of how amps work and i'm always open to learning more :)
:D First, it's hard to know exactly what Type of O.D.S circuit you have there with simply one picture of the front. The one identifying factor you do have is it's a "Gold Script" chassis which Dumble used on his 4th/5th/6th "generation" Amps
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 33#p237433

Here you can find a breakdown in some detail of what exactly is a 4th/5th/6th generation (Including the Bluesmaster)
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 31#p237431

On top of this Dumble did upgrades to his amps throughout the years so the amp could have started as one version and have been upgraded or converted into another. Dumble also did a 4th generation style with a Music Man (high voltage) output section in the "gold script" chassis.
Unfortunately the only way to know for sure is to talk to the owner, see what he/she knows or is willing to tell you, Get more photos, a serial number, and any other info you can find about the amp, Otherwise it's just a guess.

Dumble considered his amps a one off prototypes custom made for each customer (Some had to submit a recording) and the chassis were basically a platform to build these various models.
BTW. If you can identify what model/ generation it is all the info you need to build it is buried within the Amp garage.
We'll be more than happy to help with all the component stuff :wink:


Tony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
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pottedplant
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Re: Has anyone seen this Dumble before

Post by pottedplant »

talbany wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:16 pm :D First, it's hard to know exactly what Type of O.D.S circuit you have there with simply one picture of the front. The one identifying factor you do have is it's a "Gold Script" chassis which Dumble used on his 4th/5th/6th "generation" Amps
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 33#p237433

Here you can find a breakdown in some detail of what exactly is a 4th/5th/6th generation (Including the Bluesmaster)
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 31#p237431

On top of this Dumble did upgrades to his amps throughout the years so the amp could have started as one version and have been upgraded or converted into another. Dumble also did a 4th generation style with a Music Man (high voltage) output section in the "gold script" chassis.
Unfortunately the only way to know for sure is to talk to the owner, see what he/she knows or is willing to tell you, Get more photos, a serial number, and any other info you can find about the amp, Otherwise it's just a guess.

Dumble considered his amps a one off prototypes custom made for each customer (Some had to submit a recording) and the chassis were basically a platform to build these various models.
BTW. If you can identify what model/ generation it is all the info you need to build it is buried within the Amp garage.
We'll be more than happy to help with all the component stuff :wink:


Tony
No totally, I understand that it's unreasonable to ask you to tell me anything about an amp you don't have or haven't worked on. Sorry if it came off that way. I'm just more wondering if it's it possible to make an educated guess or tell based on how it sounds? I don't mind hearing speculations, they're fun of course. There are a few links that I posted underneath the image going to some really incredible sound clips of the amp where it displays quite an exceptional amount of harmonic overtones and whatnot. The thing sounds amazing!

The only info I have from the owner is that it's "from the mid 2000's and not that old" and has 6L6's and is an HRM going into an EV speaker. I honestly don't want to bug him I'm sure he's gotten a ton of DM's about it haha

I'd love to build it but that's probably not going to happen since there's no info about it. I feel like I should build something that's more right up the central alley of what Dumble ODS's are. I know there's no such thing as just a "Dumble ODS" and am aware that they were all custom made with tons of tweaking but I'd love to just build your basic ODS (with regards to what most people on here go for as a first build) so to speak. I've found the best way to learn about something is to start somewhere where everything branches off of (and ask an annoyingly large amount of quetsions to whoever will listen :lol: ). But I don't mean necessarily Mr Dumble's branching paths but say within the ampgarage world. There's so much coverage on amp 124 I feel like that's a good place to start? Is there another ODS that is as fully documented as that one? Basically I want to get my feet wet with a proper ODS build and just learn from there by changing it once I have absorbed the design into my psyche so to speak. Yeah I know that sounds weird lol but yeah I'll read the generation identification thread you shared with me and see what's what.

Please forgive me for asking so many annoying questions, I am just excited to participate in this community. I'm quite amazed by Mr Dumble's creations and honestly have an awe of fascination with regards to the way they sound and work. I hope I don't annoy you guys by being so curious.


martin manning wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:00 pm My recommendation on component selections is to use new good quality parts, and pay close attention to the values and the materials they are made from. By that I mean use metal film resistors in the locations they are called for, carbon or metal film elsewhere, and capacitors with the specified dielectric type and construction. Certain brands have traditionally been used, such as Dale RN65D resistors for plate loads, and Sprague Orange Drop film/foil for the coupling and tone caps. They are currently in production, and I would stick with those. A brands, they have been bought and sold over the decades, and may not have exactly the same construction as in the past, but the differences are negligible, IMO.
Honestly that was the approach I wanted to take initially but I keep seeing so many people say that the correct parts are what makes the sound of some of these amps and I just want to be able to have that proper Dumble experience when I'm finished you know? I know it sounds kinda snobby but I want to strive for accuracy and "good enough" isn't good enough for me. It doesn't mean I think I'm better or anything offensive like that, it's more that I'll always have that question in the back of my head about how it's "supposed" to sound vs what I've created with new production parts and that will drive me crazy!

If I may ask, what's your reasoning for avoiding the vintage components and suggesting to me that I go with all new stuff? Is it mostly just ease of availability? I kind of enjoy looking for parts to be honest. Even trying to find those sprague 300uF caps was quite a fun journey though I came up with nothing in the end. Before you mentioned it, I had actually discovered the snap in radial caps that fit the bill for the filtering values that Dumble used.

BTW my board set is apparently based on your pdf files according to Amplified Nation so I must thank you for sharing those with us all! Would you be able to take a look at the preamp board I have and tell me what ODS model would work best with the eyelet layout that I believe is of your design?
photo_2022-02-16_16-23-14.jpg
The other boards are not pictured but I have those as well (FET, RECT/BIAS, RELAY POWER)
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ijedouglas
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Re: Has anyone seen this Dumble before

Post by ijedouglas »

pottedplant wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:32 am How do we know the green combo is a bluesmaster?
Like I said in my original reply, I can't be 100% certain but I was told this was a BM from one of the top builders. He used to be on this forum quite a bit and he pops up every now and again. How he came to that conclusion... I have no idea :)
Ian
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pottedplant
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Re: Has anyone seen this Dumble before

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ijedouglas wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:13 pm
pottedplant wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:32 am How do we know the green combo is a bluesmaster?
Like I said in my original reply, I can't be 100% certain but I was told this was a BM from one of the top builders. He used to be on this forum quite a bit and he pops up every now and again. How he came to that conclusion... I have no idea :)
Ah yeah I think I misread your reply a bit. Thanks for clarifying!
talbany
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Re: Has anyone seen this Dumble before

Post by talbany »

I'd love to build it but that's probably not going to happen since there's no info about it. I feel like I should build something that's more right up the central alley of what Dumble ODS's are. I know there's no such thing as just a "Dumble ODS" and am aware that they were all custom made with tons of tweaking but I'd love to just build your basic ODS (with regards to what most people on here go for as a first build) so to speak. I've found the best way to learn about something is to start somewhere where everything branches off of (and ask an annoyingly large amount of quetsions to whoever will listen :lol: ). But I don't mean necessarily Mr Dumble's branching paths but say within the ampgarage world. There's so much coverage on amp 124 I feel like that's a good place to start? Is there another ODS that is as fully documented as that one? Basically I want to get my feet wet with a proper ODS build and just learn from there by changing it once I have absorbed the design into my psyche so to speak. Yeah I know that sounds weird lol but yeah I'll read the generation identification thread you shared with me and see what's what.
OK so this is a totally different question!
If I would have to guess and judging by the overtones and breakup this amp has would indeed be a Bluesmaster and the reason why it sounds different than the Lerche amp I posted is because it looks like he is going into the FET input https://www.instagram.com/p/CXSUJQctbAZ/ and Peters was not :lol: Peters was also in the Jazz setting w/ mid boost on
Like I said in my original reply, I can't be 100% certain but I was told this was a BM from one of the top builders. He used to be on this forum quite a bit and he pops up every now and again. How he came to that conclusion... I have no idea :)
BTW. Sorry Ian I missed your original BM post :wink:
Tony
Last edited by talbany on Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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martin manning
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Re: Has anyone seen this Dumble before

Post by martin manning »

pottedplant wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:31 pmI know it sounds kinda snobby but I want to strive for accuracy and "good enough" isn't good enough for me. It doesn't mean I think I'm better or anything offensive like that, it's more that I'll always have that question in the back of my head about how it's "supposed" to sound vs what I've created with new production parts and that will drive me crazy!
If you want to build with period correct parts for your own peace of mind, have at it. There are other opinions, but I am personally comfortable with the idea that new parts don't sound significantly different from old parts of the same type.
pottedplant wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:31 pmIf I may ask, what's your reasoning for avoiding the vintage components and suggesting to me that I go with all new stuff? Is it mostly just ease of availability? I kind of enjoy looking for parts to be honest. Even trying to find those sprague 300uF caps was quite a fun journey though I came up with nothing in the end. Before you mentioned it, I had actually discovered the snap in radial caps that fit the bill for the filtering values that Dumble used.
Using old electrolytic capacitors is not a good idea, since their performance deteriorates over time. With careful treatment they can often be brought back to acceptable levels, but in general I think new ones will be more reliable. Ceramic capacitors and resistors (other than carbon composition type) are very stable, so no worries there. I wonder about film capacitors, though, since plastic films are known to deteriorate. I prefer to avoid any of these issues by using new parts. Probably everyone who has been doing this a while has had the experience of a new part being defective, however.
pottedplant wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:31 pmBTW my board set is apparently based on your pdf files according to Amplified Nation so I must thank you for sharing those with us all! Would you be able to take a look at the preamp board I have and tell me what ODS model would work best with the eyelet layout that I believe is of your design?
You can build any of the ODS variants on those boards. The power supply board is configured for a stacked reservoir and individual filters, but you can easily add some eyelets and turn it into the "precision" style with stacked filters. The rectifier/bias board can be wired for a two-phase or FWB rectifier, so it will work for any ODS. The relay power board is configured for a FWB rectifier, with 12VAC input and 12V relays. A FWB should work with 6.3VAC input and 5V relays, provided a low-dropout regulator is used. If you want to build an HRM/Bluesmaster type, then you will need an HRM daughter board.
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