Steel String Singer question

[martin manning]

I think the Ceriatone SSS is actually just a JM wonderland with filters

I think you are right. There were gut shots posted here a while back, and the owner's manual is available. No CF driver in that amp. Listed tube compliment:
V9, V8, V7, V6 – 6L6GC power tube
V5 – 12AX7 / ECC83 (phase inverter)
V4 – 12AX7 / ECC83 (reverb / preamp mixer)
V3 – 12AT7 / ECC81 (reverb driver)
V2 – 12AX7 / ECC83 (reverb send / return)
V1 – 12AX7 / ECC83 (preamp gain stages)

Dreric's latest amp is close to what I would call a TAG SSS, with the "optional" UL 6550 output section. Some SSS have tremolo; adding that would be the full monty. No, wait, Switchable FET boost too!

[SixStringBender]

I'm after the SRV silverface SSS tone. How many preamp tubes did SRV's silverface SSS have? I read mention of a picture of the rear of his SSS, but I don't know where this picture is. I need to know how many reverb mixer tubes it had.

[jfs322]

The Ceriatone SSS is not a Wonderland with step filters. The Ceriatone SSS is a clone of the Two-Rock Sterling Signature, which is a clone of SSS #004 with an revised layout.

[talbany]

So for those that are curious. I've played several different SSS types Ceriatone and an 004 and Bludotone High Planes Drifter.(modeled after I think EJ now Santana's SSS) The one I built was taken directly from the #002 amp the one John Mayer owned or still owns? .Mine is currently loaded with 4 KT-100's and has the 4 tube reverb and runs class AB2.
If you do an in-depth search here you will find different opinions on which SSS sounds and performs along with there options on the ones with the CF driver and without. Out of all the SSS amps, I ve played I can honestly say that the 002 has by far the best sounding and most versatile reverb in any guitar amp I've played to date and is the main reason why I picked this schematic. This is the one utilizing 2X12AX mixer or( tweed mixer) low impedance mixing circuit. The best way to describe this reverb is clean and clear with a bright and articulate top end, very lush with plenty of gain and not at all boomy or hollow sounding like the 2 tube reverbs can get. I am not knocking the 2 tubes reverbs they sound good but the 4 tube versions in 002 is another level altogether and highly recommend this circuit for your SSS

Next would be the amps with and or without the CF Driver. The ones with the DC-coupled cathode follower your now running in class AB2 or class A2 (the "2" suffix indicates grid current flows for a portion of the cycle)This effectively isolates the output tube grid circuit from the phase inverter and its associated AC coupling, and provides a very low impedance source for the output stage. This will prevent the output stage from going into grid clamp, and will eliminate the long time constant of the AC coupling virtually eliminating any blocking distortion. The benefits that come with driving the grids at a lower impedance and the Class AB-2 operation the result is increased bandwidth w/extended bass and treble response clean clear and articulately voiced amplifier. The other unique aspect that comes with the driver is a very natural tube-driven compression that is hard to describe (you just have to play it) . These amps are clean loud very percussive (show all your mistakes) not at all harsh so you can call up any pickup configuration on any Strat setting and still hear every note clean, clear with no loose or flappy bass frequency's hanging off the neck pickup or out of phase settings at any volume. The filters obviously add to the amps versatility and dynamic response. 002 Has the "classic " stack. These amps work great with just about any overdrive pedal (although Fuzz style pedals might be harder to dial in.) Chorus/Delay and any time-based effects sound good as well.

Here is a good example of what I am talking about. Even with all the pressure, Stevie exerts(even breaks a string) the amp stays clean and clear with virtually no breakup and the sound he gets from his Strat is HUGE!. I believe this is his Silverface SSS and definitely has the CF Driver in it and I think loaded 6550's.So if you want this sound you have to go AB-2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDYiw1I30ck

The AB-2 driven High powered version is NOT for everyone! It is a 1 trick pony amp, so if you like output tube distortion (or any distortion) this might not be for you!. However, I will say there is nothing like having one of these bad boys run up loud in a trio hammering out some Stevie or Jimi with a Strat and a shot of bourbon sitting next to the handle. What's not to like Probably building it.



Tony

[SixStringBender]

Thanks Tony. I have been leaning towards 002 for a while, but it would be nice to know how many tubes SRV's had. Out of all the demos I have ever heard the 002 sounds more like SRV's silverface to me. The Sebago Texas Flood and the TAG builds. Also, mhartman's sounds good too, with his LNFB changes. I haven't played any of these amps. I'm just going by youtube videos, and it is difficult to judge with audio clips when it is a different guy playing each time. My first build will certainly be 002, but even if I build the 004 or the Ceriatone, I will install the CF driver.

I do have experience with class AB2 and it is awesome! I posted a sound clip on page 2 of my single channel AB763 amp with reverb and without tremolo. It has MOSFET source followers driving the output stage. I don't really describe the bass as more extended, rather more punchy. I would even say tighter. Since I am fighting extended treble, maybe there is more extended treble with AB2, but I think that problem is in the preamp. I put snubbers on every gain stage and I think they are actually causing more extended treble. I don't know how or why.

What are some thoughts on the 002 way of applying LNFB vs mhartmans way of doing it?

Mine won't be an exact copy of the 002. I don't want 100W, or 150W. Mine will have a Super Reverb size OT with multiple taps so I can reflect the primary impedance for JJ 6V6S, KT66, 5881 or 6L6GC. So about 24W to 60W of power, depending on the tubes installed. I may even do power scaling so 0W to 60W. I already have tinnitus and I don't want any more hearing damage.

As for the Ceriatone. A little bird sent me the schematic and layout. Gonna post them in a bit.

Edit: The Ceriatone SSS layout and schematics are on page 1.

[talbany]

Thanks for posting the C-Tone info I am sure and hope many people here will find it helpfull!

Thanks Tony. I have been leaning towards 002 for a while, but it would be nice to know how many tubes SRV's had. Out of all the demos I have ever heard the 002 sounds more like SRV's silverface to me. The Sebago Texas Flood and the TAG builds. Also, mhartman's sounds good too, with his LNFB changes. I haven't played any of these amps. I'm just going by youtube videos, and it is difficult to judge with audio clips when it is a different guy playing each time. My first build will certainly be 002, but even if I build the 004 or the Ceriatone, I will install the CF driver.

The heartman amp looks good to me. My guess would be if you used his layout and added the driver section this should get you close. How close I don't know since I have not yet built or played the Hartman amp. So I am in the same boat you are there. The Sebago is a direct copy of the 002 and the same one as I have.

I do have experience with class AB2 and it is awesome! I posted a sound clip on page 2 of my single channel AB763 amp with reverb and without tremolo. It has MOSFET source followers driving the output stage. I don't really describe the bass as more extended, rather more punchy. I would even say tighter. Since I am fighting extended treble, maybe there is more extended treble with AB2, but I think that problem is in the preamp. I put snubbers on every gain stage and I think they are actually causing more extended treble. I don't know how or why.

So my question is why are you adding snubbers to the driver circuit. With this feature having such a large impact on the overall sound of the amp your trying to copy,why modify it? If it's too bright just switch down the Hi Filters.

What are some thoughts on the 002 way of applying LNFB vs mhartmans way of doing it?

Me I am not a big fan of using too many LNFB loops in the preamp. It can make the amp sound a bit sterile and flat sounding. For me 1 in the gain stages and 1 in the reverb section is usually what I like to see

Mine won't be an exact copy of the 002. I don't want 100W, or 150W. Mine will have a Super Reverb size OT with multiple taps so I can reflect the primary impedance for JJ 6V6S, KT66, 5881 or 6L6GC. So about 24W to 60W of power, depending on the tubes installed. I may even do power scaling so 0W to 60W. I already have tinnitus and I don't want any more hearing damage.

Here is my opinion on this. The SSS is a totally clean amp and your not looking for any kind of distortion either out of the preamp or the power amp. My 200W SSS sounds just as good with the volume turned down as it does turned up! feels the same as well. So the question you need to ask yourself is? does a 100W output section sound and respond the same to you turned down as say vs a 22W output section turned up a little. I prefer the sound character and response of the 100w turned down low. But that is something your ultimately going to have to decide!

Hope this helps.
BTW. The main reason for the larger bandwidth associated with AB-2 is your driving the output tubes grids at a lower impedance, Impedance being a function of frequency. V = IZ. (basically)

Tony

[norburybrook]

The Ceriatone SSS is not a Wonderland with step filters. The Ceriatone SSS is a clone of the Two-Rock Sterling Signature, which is a clone of SSS #004 with an revised layout.

looking at the layout it looks pretty similar to me to the wonderland, it has no Cathode follower and apart from a slightly different power supply arrangement and the addition of the filters it's more or less the same.


I'm no expert but can you tell me why it's not basically a Wonderland with filters?



M

[martin manning]

The SSS is a totally clean amp and your not looking for any kind of distortion either out of the preamp or the power amp. My 200W SSS sounds just as good with the volume turned down as it does turned up! feels the same as well. So the question you need to ask yourself is? does a 100W output section sound and respond the same to you turned down as say vs a 22W output section turned up a little. I prefer the sound character and response of the 100w turned down low.

Amen, brother!

The Ceriatone SSS is not a Wonderland with step filters. The Ceriatone SSS is a clone of the Two-Rock Sterling Signature, which is a clone of SSS #004 with an revised layout.

looking at the layout it looks pretty similar to me to the wonderland, it has no Cathode follower and apart from a slightly different power supply arrangement and the addition of the filters it's more or less the same.
I'm no expert but can you tell me why it's not basically a Wonderland with filters?

That's the way I'm thinking of it too, Marcus. I have not studied all of them closely and together yet, but they share the same single channel preamp, 2 tube reverb, and mixing stages as the salient topological features.

I do have experience with class AB2 and it is awesome! I posted a sound clip on page 2 of my single channel AB763 amp with reverb and without tremolo. It has MOSFET source followers driving the output stage.

Is that what resulted from this: https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27517 ? A lot of effort went into that discussion, then the thread just died.

[talbany]

BTW. Here is the hand drawn schematic of 002. There are a few typos. This is the one I built and is the same as the Sebago (Texas Flood amp) It uses a parasitic supply for the driver.
https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17827

SSS_002_revision_7_174.pdf

Tony

[jfs322]

The Ceriatone SSS is not a Wonderland with step filters. The Ceriatone SSS is a clone of the Two-Rock Sterling Signature, which is a clone of SSS #004 with an revised layout.

looking at the layout it looks pretty similar to me to the wonderland, it has no Cathode follower and apart from a slightly different power supply arrangement and the addition of the filters it's more or less the same.


I'm no expert but can you tell me why it's not basically a Wonderland with filters?



M

I guess we talking from different perspectives. I was talking about about how the amps originated, not whether the circuits are the same. In other words, Ceriatone somehow got its hands on a Two-Rock Sterling Signature (a SSS #004 clone) and cloned THAT amp; it wasn't like Nik said, "I'm going to take the Wonderland circuit and add step filters, and then call it an SSS." So the Ceriatone SSS is technically a clone of a clone of #004, not a Wonderland with step filters. Now, does it share essentially the same circuit? Yes, but it wasn't set out to be a Wonderland with Step Filters, it was set out to be a Sterling clone.

[SixStringBender]

Talbany wrote, "So my question is why are you adding snubbers to the driver circuit. With this feature having such a large impact on the overall sound of the amp your trying to copy,why modify it? If it's too bright just switch down the Hi Filters."

I didn't put any snubbers on the driver. They are on the plate load resistors of the preamp stages. I had my wife cut them out though. The preamp is basically the reverb channel of an AB763. It doesn't have step filters.

Martin, yes, but it is a different amp, but still yes. The amp wasn't finished until recently, so there was no need to add to that post until now. I would rather get the amp dialed in before I do. I've learned a lot since then. I'm no longer a newb, but I'm still a dummy. HAHA

I went with a 25V supply for the drains and a -170V supply for the source. Also, the -170V supply powers the bias through the London Power power scaling circuit. I believe once I dial the tonestack and preamp in this amp will sound pretty good. It stays clean and sounds nearly the same at low volume as it does at high volume. Until it is cranked really hard. If the schematic didn't have Kevin's power scaling circuit in it I would share it so you guys can look at it. I can describe the circuit, all but the power scaling, if any of you want. I don't know the PS by memory anyway.

Remember, I'm blind, so learning all these circuits is a great deal of work for me. My friend and I, rolloman (the original poster of this topic), talk by email nearly everyday. Currently he is describing all the SSS circuits to me. We are at the step filters.

[norburybrook]

The Ceriatone SSS is not a Wonderland with step filters. The Ceriatone SSS is a clone of the Two-Rock Sterling Signature, which is a clone of SSS #004 with an revised layout.

looking at the layout it looks pretty similar to me to the wonderland, it has no Cathode follower and apart from a slightly different power supply arrangement and the addition of the filters it's more or less the same.


I'm no expert but can you tell me why it's not basically a Wonderland with filters?



M

I guess we talking from different perspectives. I was talking about about how the amps originated, not whether the circuits are the same. In other words, Ceriatone somehow got its hands on a Two-Rock Sterling Signature (a SSS #004 clone) and cloned THAT amp; it wasn't like Nik said, "I'm going to take the Wonderland circuit and add step filters, and then call it an SSS." So the Ceriatone SSS is technically a clone of a clone of #004, not a Wonderland with step filters. Now, does it share essentially the same circuit? Yes, but it wasn't set out to be a Wonderland with Step Filters, it was set out to be a Sterling clone.

Interesting, so SSS#4 then has no Cathode follower and is basically what became the Dumble/Wonderland then? It's also interesting that Two rock who originally built the wonderland for John mayer as his Signature amp also cloned #4 SSS and called that their Sterling Signature.


I was always under the impression after building one of these myself that the SSS needed to have a cathode follower to be a 'SSS'


M


MC

[jfs322]

Correct, SSS #004 does not have a cathode follower (I believe the only SSS that doesn't have one), but it has a ton of LNFB built in.

And it's not surprising that the Wonderland/JM ended up much like the SSS #004. Two Rock had SSS #004 on its bench (on loan from Henry Kaiser) around 2004-2005, I believe. They cloned the amp, but used a new layout they worked up, and called it the "Sterling Signature." Then about 2-3 years later, they started working with Mayer on a signature amp from him. And so obviously a lot of the stuff they learned from being inside SSS #004 made its way into Mayer's signature amp, what we now call the Wonderland. That's why they are similar, because Two-Rock had access to SSS #004 just a few years prior and thus incorporated a lot of that info into the amp they built John.

Nik at Ceriatone somehow came across a Two-Rock Sterling Signature (aka #004 clone with new layout) and cloned that amp, calling it the Ceriatone SSS. So it's technically a clone of a clone of SSS #004, but it shares a lot of features with the Wonderland because Two-Rock used a lot of the info it gained from being inside #004 when it made the Wonderland.

[norburybrook]

Thanks that actually makes a lot of sense.


M

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[donvan]

BTW. Here is the hand drawn schematic of 002. There are a few typos. This is the one I built and is the same as the Sebago (Texas Flood amp) It uses a parasitic supply for the driver.
https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17827

SSS_002_revision_7_174.pdf
Tony

Thanks Tony! Are the typos that you are referring to only in the hand drawn schematic or are there typos also in the pdf?