Quinn goes PCB

[Structo]

Interesting.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... ?t=1007468

[brentm]

Interesting.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... ?t=1007468

Hmm, interesting. To be honest, Two Rock has been there, done that. The Two Rock Jade was a PCB approach, likely trying to solve the problem that these amps just take a lot of work and time to build.

I'm guessing that the real time savings is he's found a source to print and populate the boards with his components. So he'll just be assembling the amps and doing the final tweaks/touches.

I know another boutique pedal builder that has taken the reverse approach to pedals. He populates the boards and has "assemblers" wire them up and fit them in a case and ship them to dealers. If he's going to off-board all the stuff that takes time (tube sockets, switches, pots, jacks), he may as well take this approach and find some "populaters" to create his boards and then he can stuff the chassis. Otherwise, the value in PCBs would be to pcb mount the pots, jacks, switches, tube sockets. Or daughter board the pots, switches, etc and ribbon cable it to the main board. And then really crank out the amps.

Ultimately, I think the TR - Jade was not so successful because people want hand-wired amps. They want to look inside and think "someone spent the better part of their day making each individual connection. I know some big name builders do PCB versions of these platforms successfully, and my hat goes off to them! I got no disrespect for PCB, but I think the sex appeal of these amps is they're old school tube amplifiers that are hand wired.

In my opinion, he'd be better off keeping to the tradition and hiring more amp builders. Just my .02 and I'd gladly eat these words someday.

[boldaslove6789]

The reason Shad's going with this new PCB approach is so he can give the chance to folks that want a quality D-style amp at a reasonable price.

Shad'd populating PCB's in house with his amp crew (Quinnamp and Redplate build at the same facility)with Shad doing the final tone tweaking. That said, quality control will be the best bar none.

The new amp models are packed with features (Built in Buffered loop with series/parallel switch), Local Negative Feedback switch, 2 selectable boosts, 4 button Ftsw, HRM controls on the front panel, rear Bias Adjust, etc.).

AFAIK he's shooting for around 2k for the Head version, which is more than reasonable with all the features.

Also, the SDQ 1 & 2 preamps are still made with the same as the eyelet/g10 version, with the same components (dale resistors, Orange drops etc.),but they're PCB instead hasn't changed the layout so they'll sound the same. They also have an extra relay to switch the preamp in and out with whatever D-style amp you're using as a power amps internal preamp.

There will be two different voicing's with 2 different control layout's, HRM, and NON-HRM.The HRM version will have all the regular controls, plus panel mounted treble, middle, and bass for the Overdrive.

I should have some clips of at least one of the new PCB preamps for ya'll sometime soon.

Definitely interesting....

[brentm]

That's cool. I just found some pictures on Facebook. It looks like he did daughter board the tube sockets/components. Looks very nice and professional. Having messed with some PCB software, that is a TIME CONSUMING experience to get everything just right. Off by a mm and things don't line up well Forget about making mistakes too

All in all, his work looks great and very professional!

My only comments were what I felt the market said at the time of the TR Jade. If it were a successful amp in their stable, it'd still be in production (ala Custom Reverb Special). I have no inside info other than what I've seen and read from Joe on their PCB amp trial. I know some folks used to rail Two Rock for having PCB power supply boards, and now look at them. They're back to formica on those too. Believe me, I know electrically, a solder trace and a solid core wire should electrically accomplish the same thing. People are just finicky at this price range of amplifiers.

The internet has amplified (lack of better term) the voice of critics. Mine included. I would say that you either have to separate yourself from your competition by price or differentiation. It will be interesting to see if he can keep the amps around 2k and still meet demand. Fuchs is already pretty competitive at that price range and Shad seems to have lost his differentiation by leaving the handwired world and moving to PCB.

Don't take my peanut gallery comments too harshly. I always tell young people who don't know what to do with their lives quite yet to "do what you love, the money will follow." It sounds like Shad is doing what he loves and enjoying it, so more power to him!

In the end, I presume he's able to lower the price of the amps by making them less labor intensive and possibly outsourcing some of the work. I don't see any savings in materials here...

[LeftyStrat]

Honestly, I don't believe any amp builder can ever be really successful building one amp at a time. It just doesn't scale.

I don't think Ken Fischer or Alexander Dumble got rich off of hand made amps.

As much as I love to idolize the past, when craftsmen built quality by their own hands, those days are over, and if you want to compete, compete on the manufacturing costs.

Apparently even Mike Soldano agrees:

http://www.jetcityamplification.com/

[Max]

people want hand-wired amps. They want to look inside and think "someone spent the better part of their day making each individual connection.

AFAIK there are at least some famous exceptions:

AFAIK SRV, Colin James, Henry Kaiser, Todd Sharp, David Lindley, Larry Carlton, Kirk Hammett, Eric Johnson, John Mayer and all the other players who used and use a Dumble SSS or a Dumble ODS 150W didn't have any kind of psychological, philosophical, ethical or whatever problem, that spoiled their fun when playing a Dumble SSS or a Dumble ODS 150W, that AFAIK all have a PCB preamp and a PCB power amp. AFIK even the preamp and the power amp of SSS #001 is already done completely on a PCB.

Cheers,

Max

[jelle]

...but those are handmade PCBs.....

[Max]

...but those are handmade PCBs.....

...and with mouth-blown tubes in the sockets!

Cheers,

Max

[jborders5]

One of my best sounding Dumble style amps was PCB. I was bored one day and started laying it out with no real goal other than seeing if I could do the entire amp on one board. The preamp tubes are PC Mount, but the pots and power tubes are chassis mount. The amp is quiet, stable and sounds as good if not better than some of my hand wired versions that follow the "Dumble Rule Book". This is the only pic I could find on my iPhone. It's buried in a box in my shop from the move...

[img:640:477]http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/6/img0262nx.jpg[/img]

[LeftyStrat]

Last estimate I saw was the average Chinese factory worker makes about 64 cents an hour.

You could employee one hundred of them for $64 an hour. If only ten of the amps they built were good, you'd still be way ahead of the game.

Which is one more reason to respect the Dumbles and Fischers of the world. They are a dying breed, and the next generation will only know the quality that MBA's impose on the bottom line.

[Max]

the "Dumble Rule Book".

I've strong doubts that Alexander has one of these books on his bookshelf.

So perhaps the most important "Dumble Rule" is IMO:

Break'em all and use your own ears and especially the organ between your ears!

Have fun!

Max

[brentm]

people want hand-wired amps. They want to look inside and think "someone spent the better part of their day making each individual connection.

AFAIK there are at least some famous exceptions:

AFAIK SRV, Colin James, Henry Kaiser, Todd Sharp, David Lindley, Larry Carlton, Kirk Hammett, Eric Johnson, John Mayer and all the other players who used and use a Dumble SSS or a Dumble ODS 150W didn't have any kind of psychological, philosophical, ethical or whatever problem, that spoiled their fun when playing a Dumble SSS or a Dumble ODS 150W, that AFAIK all have a PCB preamp and a PCB power amp. AFIK even the preamp and the power amp of SSS #001 is already done completely on a PCB.

Cheers,

Max

Are you thinking point to point circuit? Not printed circuit board???

I'm only saying that people want "boutique" point to point circuits in their high dough amps.

[jborders5]

the "Dumble Rule Book".

I've strong doubts that Alexander has one of these books on his bookshelf.

Good point, I agree 100%... I should have said "The Amp Garage, Dumble Discussion Rule Book"

[brentm]

Last estimate I saw was the average Chinese factory worker makes about 64 cents an hour.

You could employee one hundred of them for $64 an hour. If only ten of the amps they built were good, you'd still be way ahead of the game.

Which is one more reason to respect the Dumbles and Fischers of the world. They are a dying breed, and the next generation will only know the quality that MBA's impose on the bottom line.

I guess that's partly what makes them so desirable. We humans are never content with what's in hand and constantly desire what is out of reach. I see this trait come out with my 5 month old daughter and I think we spend the better part of our lives fighting this... to be happy with our portion, and not think the grass is greener at the next place of employment, etc. Without getting too lofty... part of what makes Dumbles so damn hot is that there is no supply of them. They sound great too, but there are plenty of amps that sound great and heck. Even a clean amp with some pedals can do Dumble style tone with the right fingers. Hermida has proven this thanks to Mr. Ford. But if Robben didn't pick up that pedal, would his pedal be as popular as it is??

At any rate, I'd wonder what would happen if he kept the SDO line (PTP hand wired) amplifier line and then offered the PCB version next to it at a lower cost. Would the market demand for the hand wired amp go to zero? Heck, even add 500-1000 to the price of the SDO to make it compelling to go the less expensive route... would demand drop to zero? Interesting question... perhaps one that won't be accurately answered.

[brentm]

One of my best sounding Dumble style amps was PCB. I was bored one day and started laying it out with no real goal other than seeing if I could do the entire amp on one board. The preamp tubes are PC Mount, but the pots and power tubes are chassis mount. The amp is quiet, stable and sounds as good if not better than some of my hand wired versions that follow the "Dumble Rule Book". This is the only pic I could find on my iPhone. It's buried in a box in my shop from the move...

[img:640:477]http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/6/img0262nx.jpg[/img]

That's pretty dang cool man! You got it right there! I imagine the flex of shoving a tube in a socket might be hard on a board that size without some engineering.

Im sure his amp will sound amazing! I'm just commenting that people can get a little finicky when things go from handcrafted masterpiece to templatized.