norburybrook wrote:Sven checkout my 102 build there's a layout Martin did for All rock and no jazz.
M
Where is that sch.?
I mean no offense to anyone, but I find it interesting that guys can get a full amp built and working without the basic knowledge to modify the circuit for rock only. I don't understand that thought process and I wonder how serious injuries are avoided. I hope everyone is working safely because there is a potentially lethal high voltage in there.
Important point for sure!
Remember the old radio repair trick - never mes with a tube amp with the voltage on, but if you must use a chopstick in one hand and keep the other hand in your pocket to avoid getting high voltage.
When I power up a new amp or an amp after serious mods, I use a long voltage cort and stand behind a door, flicking the wall power switch with on hand. Safety first.
bluesfendermanblues wrote:
Remember the old radio repair trick - never mes with a tube amp with the voltage on, but if you must use a chopstick in one hand and keep the other hand in your pocket to avoid getting high voltage.
Yep I was taught; orange stick right hand, left pocket left hand.
Both you members, VIBRATOKING and BLUESFENDERMANBLUES, can try to insult me all you wish with your ugly insults, but the entire ¨documentation¨ of the Dumble 124 clone on this Web forum is most politely described as BALL OF CONFUSION. If I would be as rude as you two are, I would call it even worse... but in any which way one looks at it, totally PATHETIC is the fact that I have been on this formu SEVEN YEARS ago last time and NOTHING has been done to improve that BALL OF CONFUSION even one step. That is the testament to your ¨wise cracks¨ you directed at me - while not being able in ten years to CLARIFY basic issues and bring up to the forum a FINAL set of schemes and layouts that one could work with...
As an Electrical Engineer and Sound Engineer whose expertise is not in the valve amp design, but is in ENGINEERING as a SCIENCE and TECHNIQUE OF DESIGNING AUDIO SYSTEMS (may I just add that SEATTLE GRUNGE SCENE IN PROFESSIONAL SOUND RECORDING HAS BEEN MY AREA OF ACTIVITY THROUGHOUT TWO DECADES... while other of my credits includes mixing in London's ¨Olympic¨ studios - with same people who worked as pro Engineers with Led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones and such ¨minor users of valve amps...¨), I would call your so-called ¨documentation! almost worthless pile of garbage that is so confusing that it would be REJECTED in all companies and projects that I was involved in my life! I am thankful to Mr. Tony Albany for his fine work and effort, but still, to put it mildly, there are many descrepancies between his work and other people's contribution so if one looks at it OVERALL as any visitor of this forum would do in 90% of cases, one would NOT be able to compile info worthy of DEPENDABLE info to build a Dumble 124 clone! My friends, engineers who are going to build this amp for me cannot start working unless I bring them USABLE documentation, unless I make them a clear working assignement (and they are EXCELLENT ENGINEERS!) which is NOT available on this forum, the same way as it way unavailable SEVEN YEARS AGO! While assenine insults do not help either...
I cannot even begin to note contradictions in schematics, layouts, variations... etc. - and not in DUMBLE DISCUSSION segment where those issues could be acceptable as a result of wandering around nad guessing, but in DUMBLE FILES section where it is considered that matters are settled.
I you wish to see what PROPER drawing of layouts by PROPER ENGINEERS is done, check out EXCELLENT LAYOUTS BY A ¨CERIATONE¨ COMPANY in Asia and learn something about making clean, clear and definite drawings... instead of insulting some of us who come here and try to clarify some issues... and so on and so forth.
Your arrogance - you two members - is hopefully not the standard of some other finer folks who are members of this forum.
Sven: pls calm down. This forum is running by the grace of builders who are willing to share there experiences for free.. No product selling involved. Pls give these guys some slack if they made eyebrow raising remarks.
Sven wrote:I you wish to see what PROPER drawing of layouts by PROPER ENGINEERS is done, check out EXCELLENT LAYOUTS BY A ¨CERIATONE¨ COMPANY in Asia and learn something about making clean, clear and definite drawings...
Ampgarage is not a business, it's a public forum supported by enthusiasts, in their spare time, for fun. Ceriatone is a business that has taken information directly from Ampgarage and used it to produce kits and complete amps for profit. If something new in the Dumble vein appears here, a new Ceriatone product based on it will appear shortly thereafter. A lot of people here don't think too highly of that practice since Ceriatone is making money from the hard work of those who have ferreted out the details of the circuits without any compensation (and to be fair, they are not the only ones to have done so). There is nothing to prevent that from happening, and it does provide a service, bringing such a project within the reach of those who do not have the knowledge and/or skills to source the parts and build it themselves. If you are impressed with Ceriatone's documentation, by all means have your friends use it to build your amp. There is no doubt, however, that the documentation here is more than adequate for anyone with a little knowledge of electronics to build a 124 clone, and it's not hard to find. If your guys can't do it from what what is here (really just two documents, the 124 schematic and layout), you should look for someone else.
Sven wrote:Both you members, VIBRATOKING and BLUESFENDERMANBLUES, can try to insult me all you wish with your ugly insults, but the entire ¨documentation¨ of the Dumble 124 clone on this Web forum is most politely described as BALL OF CONFUSION. If I would be as rude as you two are, I would call it even worse... but in any which way one looks at it, totally PATHETIC is the fact that I have been on this formu SEVEN YEARS ago last time and NOTHING has been done to improve that BALL OF CONFUSION even one step. That is the testament to your ¨wise cracks¨ you directed at me - while not being able in ten years to CLARIFY basic issues and bring up to the forum a FINAL set of schemes and layouts that one could work with...
As an Electrical Engineer and Sound Engineer whose expertise is not in the valve amp design, but is in ENGINEERING as a SCIENCE and TECHNIQUE OF DESIGNING AUDIO SYSTEMS (may I just add that SEATTLE GRUNGE SCENE IN PROFESSIONAL SOUND RECORDING HAS BEEN MY AREA OF ACTIVITY THROUGHOUT TWO DECADES... while other of my credits includes mixing in London's ¨Olympic¨ studios - with same people who worked as pro Engineers with Led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones and such ¨minor users of valve amps...¨), I would call your so-called ¨documentation! almost worthless pile of garbage that is so confusing that it would be REJECTED in all companies and projects that I was involved in my life! I am thankful to Mr. Tony Albany for his fine work and effort, but still, to put it mildly, there are many descrepancies between his work and other people's contribution so if one looks at it OVERALL as any visitor of this forum would do in 90% of cases, one would NOT be able to compile info worthy of DEPENDABLE info to build a Dumble 124 clone! My friends, engineers who are going to build this amp for me cannot start working unless I bring them USABLE documentation, unless I make them a clear working assignement (and they are EXCELLENT ENGINEERS!) which is NOT available on this forum, the same way as it way unavailable SEVEN YEARS AGO! While assenine insults do not help either...
I cannot even begin to note contradictions in schematics, layouts, variations... etc. - and not in DUMBLE DISCUSSION segment where those issues could be acceptable as a result of wandering around nad guessing, but in DUMBLE FILES section where it is considered that matters are settled.
I you wish to see what PROPER drawing of layouts by PROPER ENGINEERS is done, check out EXCELLENT LAYOUTS BY A ¨CETIATONE¨ COMPANY and learn something instead of insulting some of us who come here and try to clarify some issues... and so on and so forth.
Your arrogance - you two members - is hopefully not the standard of some other finer folks who are members of this forum.
Sven, as the time passes apparently more things remain the same with you than change! Haven't we been down this same road with you before? There must be something loss in language because I fail to see where you have been supposedly "insulted" here by the two members that you called out.
I have been on virtual forums for almost 30 years and I will tell you that TAG is easily the the most civil forum that I have ever been involved with. We don't dwell on politics, race, religion, gender, nationality or one's personal or professional background. The core of discussion is centered around hobbyist tube amp building and about what you bring to the forum family as a person.
I will say this what we really don't care too much for is pompous individuals, general assholes and thieves.
As far as the technical info found here, it's 100% free of charge.....free, free, and free. Which means ANY sliver or nugget of info that you obtain here is a privilege, not an entitlement. Just because you can point your browser here doesn't mean that it's a birthright data mining repository with engineering build packages available so that you can hand feed to your folks to build you an amplifier. Maybe you will have you have to put in some sweat equity sometimes.
I will say this, folks have come to TAG that have very little formal technical education or background and have managed to successfully build a Dumble style amplifier from just from the documents and info found on this site. This is the same "PATHETIC" info that you referenced.
Concerning Nik and his company Ceriatone; I like Nik as he has never done me wrong which is unlike a couple of semi and professional builders who are or were members here at TAG. However, it's ironic that you mentioned him because 99.9% of the Dumble info he obtained, he lifted from here at TAG. Thus, apparently this "PATHETIC " info was adequate enough for him and his engineers to build an amp line. Furthermore, his business obviously subsidizes his website from profits made from info mined from TAG and the TAG forum is free!
Sven, perhaps you should pay for information, would that make you feel better?
Sven, I'm surprised by your reaction. I'll agree with the last post, I've found this one of the most inclusive, friendly and friendly forums I've ever frequented.
As a complete beginner, I've managed with the information and help here to build two amazing Dumble clones, a 100w Bluesmaster and a 50w #102.
I'm now, as you know building a #124 with the schematic and layout here. I'm now a few steps on from being a beginner and I've no problems with building from this information.
norburybrook wrote:Sven checkout my 102 build there's a layout Martin did for All rock and no jazz.
M
Where is that sch.?
I mean no offense to anyone, but I find it interesting that guys can get a full amp built and working without the basic knowledge to modify the circuit for rock only. I don't understand that thought process and I wonder how serious injuries are avoided. I hope everyone is working safely because there is a potentially lethal high voltage in there.
I'll answer this as I'm on of those 'guys'
we all have to start somewhere, as a beginner I would say your first lessons should be safety and safe working practices. So step one lets assume then that the beginner has learned to work safe.
after that I bought a 5w SE kit with good instructions , built that, learned a few things along the way.
bought a JTM 45 kit with just a layout. built that, messed it up, made silly mistakes but learned a lot from trouble shooting
thought I was now ready to jump in and build a Dumble clone.
Spent 2 weeks ordering parts, reading as much as I could here and started.
the chassis I had was already cut for no jazz/rock switch so I thought I'd just bypass it. However when I looked at it and the fact it was tied into the relays as well I just couldn't work out how to remove it. DPDT switch and relays were just a step too far at that time for me as I'd not come across relays in my previous builds.
So I asked for help.....Martin and other came to the rescue and all was well and I learned some new stuff.
martin manning wrote:Nothing wrong with that story at all. Many people would be too impatient to buy and build a simple kit as a first step, so kudos to you for that.
thanks Martin, I was mainly trying to make the point that, being a beginner doesn't necessarily equate to being dangerous. As I said, safety is lesson 1 in most things you'll do be that amp building or base jumping!
I'll add that, it's important your LEFT hand stays in your pocket even if you're a lefty as that's the side your Heart is on.
To add my 2c worth in defence of all who reside here...
My second build was a Dumble ODS and I have NO background in electronics!!! This was only possible due to the kind folk on this forum who tolerated my stupid questions (without insult I might add). This amp is my go to amp in a the band and works and sounds GREAT.
Sven, maybe you are asking the wrong people to build the amp for you. The members here are passionate about the circuits they build and are going to do the things outside of the normal in order to execute their intentions. They are willing to ask about what they don't understand.
Case in point: I gutted a Crate Blue Voodoo and rebuilt it as a #124 with the Skyliner mods. I don't think I even posted about it, maybe I should. I only used Tony's layout and the Skyliner schematic available in the Dumble files section. I don't recall asking any questions about errors or mistakes in either of the two drawings. The only issue I really had was in using the BV iron... I had to drop the B+ in order to get the voltages where needed. Here is the key: I asked questions on another topic regarding the excessive B+ and ended up with just what I needed. Amp is working fine... Only now I'm going to change the reservoir cap value to line up with this discussion. Also, I read another post a few months back and decided to change the value of the ODS trimpot.
Am I smarter than your team of engineers? I would like to think so but in reality I think not. However, I am like many others here, I will ask for a little help in understanding. I won't let a few unknown details stop me. I don't have to be spoon-fed perfect documentation in order to produce satisfactory results.
Your engineers may not have the appropriate amount of passion for this project. I can assure you that there is enough information to get the build completed in just the two documents I mentioned above. Far from the "ball of confusion" that you call it. Like I said, you might have the wrong people assigned to the task.
I don't think Blues was jerking your chain at all... And Vibrato's comments seemed to be directed more at Norybrook anyway. You should take a note from him and notice how he took it in stride. Besides, Vibrato's comment was more out of concern. Your comments seem to be from anger. Someone may have stepped on your toes a bit, but they certainly weren't made to beat you down.
I will say this... Funny to see the "professional" loose it while all the other hobbyist/hacks seem to have so much less trouble. It would make me question who I was calling a professional electrical engineer.
Two documents... All you need. I challenge your engineers to defy that. (Sound of microphone dropping on the floor, then me saying "Oh shit, I hope I didn't break it."
"Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned" - Enzo
I have discovered a long, long time ago in my life that when some people are caught, exposed, for their arrogance, vulgarity, banality, inhumane nature and such, they immediately try to put the most ugly blame on the one who exposed them. Thus, evil and ugly people are now turning against me and making assumptions and trying to make it look like I was wrong and the evil and ugly people on this forum are right! Well, it shall not be that way... so, as briefly as I could do it...
I have come to this forum after approx. 6 or 7 years of absence and pretty much developed some ¨rust¨ in my memory about valve amplifiers, so I tried to clarify several issues in order to prepare documents for building a 50W version of 124. The questions were:
1. Which scheme is the right one for the Dumble 124 clone (out of quite a number of schemes, including the one in special software for schematics named ExpressSCH, which I downloaded for that purpose...) and which layout is the right one. My assumption is that in 10 years it is not too much to expect that finally that was taken care of by such ¨FASCINATING, SMART, CLEVER...¨ amp builders with such ¨higher than thou¨ attitudes as I have seen in these couple of days... Well, no luck! BALL OF CONFUSION is the name for that situation here.
2. Someone here states that CERIATONE is a business and that is why they make such good, accurate, VERY LEGIBLE AND CLEAR (my notions, my words, of course) layouts. Well, quite a number of people on this group ALSO have a business making clone amps by copying ideas and amps by Mr. Dumble - but they do NOT share schemes and LAYOUTS of their amplifiers that they make as a part of their business. Maybe there are exceptions but ALL PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM WHO MAKE MONEY OUT OF THESE CLONES ARE NOT MORALLY AND TECHNICALLY EVEN UP TO THE KNEE HEIGHT OF GENTLEMEN IN ASIA, CERIATONE, WHO ARE HONORABLE ENOUGH TO TAKE FROM MR. DUMBLE BUT ALSO (!) TO GIVE BACK TO THE WORLD, TO THE GUITAR PLAYERS AND PRODUCERS AS FINAL USERS, SUCH GIFTS AS CERIATONE DOES! And especially by building and/or selling Dumble clone amp kits that are so cheap that I could not purchase all the parts here where I live now in Europe, as cheaply as much CERIATONE amps cost all together! I might also add that they LAYOUTS that they so generously share with the public (although Business would be rather inclined not to do that) are better than ANYTHING presented on this forum in the past 10 years. Mind you, I RESPECT the work of some people, particularly Mr. Tony Albany and several other very frequent posters with lots of contributions... but that is just uneven performance, to state the obvious...
3. I was also confused about DEEP switch and without stating it perhaps in too much detail, I wandered if that little circuit a neccessary part of ¨Dumble 124 magic¨ so that one MUST have that switch or perhaps it could be omitted altogether. A very insulting comment directed at me appeared that would lead one to believe that I, Sven, have no idea how to work with electronic circuits and such, and patronizing me with intent TO INSULT and NOT TO WARN, about safety with electronic equipment. How ridiculous after my more than 30 years spent in Sound Recording Studios and working with huge concert PA Systems as a mixing engineer, not to even mention many years as a member of bands, session musician in studios, etc. etc.
4. Although one could state even more, I shall end it here with a comment that I AM NOT ASKING ANYONE TO BUILD ANYTHING FOR ME - IT IS CLEAR THAT SUCH GENEROSITY, IF ONE WOULD EVER ASK FOR IT (WHICH I DO NOT, NOR WOULD EVER ASK... PARTICULARLY SINCE I CAN HAVE EVERYTHING I NEED HERE, NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER...) IS NOT POSSIBLE. You people have not been generous enough even to supply a CLEAR, CORRECT AND FINELY DRAWN SCHEME AND LAYOUT FOR 124 AMPLIFIER IN MORE THAN 10 YEARS - how would anyone than expect anything nice and good from you? It is impossible.
Once again, I EXCLUDE from this comment some people who are members of this forum such as I am, meaning, people who are polite, decent and most of all UNSELFISH! While for the selfish, arrogant, complex ridden creeps... well, there is a good American saying that I have learned during my two decades of life in the USA, and it is: MEAN PEOPLE SUCK!
I shall post for one member who insulted me - BLUESFENDERMANBLUES - an arrogant, rude German person I guess, how I treated his scheme with my own version of LAYOUT six years ago - a layout which is perfectly clean, clear... - which was my attitude of RESPECT. Here is the drawing from my archives, so you can see it for yourselves. This is my ad hoc, quick drawing, but it shall give you an idea what is CLEAN AND CLEAR LAYOUT supposed to look like. And, yes, I am world class Audio Professional... but I shall not post my biography, references, CV and such. And yes, valve amplifiers are not my expertise but as in areas where I AM an EXPERT, I certainly would NEVER and have NEVER threated people who asked me questions, with insults, bad attitude, etc. And as for the valve amps, I am a ¨quick study¨, so it shall come back to me what I forgot even without this forum. And, my friends here in this part of Europe who ARE very good with valve amps, certainly have much more decency and politeness... so I am fine...
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One schem is the original build, one is from after the Skyliner mods were done. Pick one and go with it. Read a little further past the layout and two shems for info on how to approach it. You seem to be the "BALL OF CONFUSION". Again, help yourself... don't expect others to do it all for you. That is what I meant by spoon-feeding.
2) Yes some of the members here build clones for profit... Nik at Ceriatone being one of them. You like his documents? Buy his kit. Where do you get support for your build? Get back to me about that when you read this.
Also, exactly where did you see when you signed up here that members are required to publish "CLEAR, CORRECT AND FINELY DRAWN SCHEME AND LAYOUT FOR 124 AMPLIFIER"? I'll answer that one for you. NOWHERE. If you have been waiting for 10 years for the docs you request, you might just want to check back in another 10 years.
Nik puts those drawings out for the people who buy his kits... that way there is a lot less for him to explain to those same people. Sounds logical from a businesses standpoint. Go ahead and join his club if you want. Call him and ask for help when you need it. Let me know how that goes too. Please quit saying that he puts them up there to give back to the community, he does it for the money, just like the other builders who you flamed. Put him in the same group if you are going to pout about it.
3) Obviously some use the ODS circuit with the Jazz and Deep switches off most of the time. It is a matter of personal preference and dependent on the guitar chosen as well as style of play. If you cannot find such info using the search function here, try "xxxx site:ampgarage.com" in a google search. If that doesn't help, figure it out yourself... maybe even give back to the world by posting about it here. Even if it is wrong, I'm sure someone here would pick up on what you are trying to do and help.
How many of those 30 years were spent sticking your hands inside of amps with the voltages seen in tube circuits? I guess by your own words, not much in the last few years anyway. Vibrato posted a concern... you could have answered him and I'm sure he would understand.
4) I still don't see how Blues was being rude to you... He simply reiterated what ToneMerc had commented on. Your very next comment was blasting him?? Read what he wrote dude! Put it in context. Just to let you know... this is me being rude to you. Just didn't want you to misunderstand that. I'm not a rude person by nature but will put on that cape when I feel it is necessary.
There are some rude people here sometimes, but they don't seem to last. Most of the people here are kind and generous. I have given help and received it as well. I have sent small boards and parts out to members free of charge. Members have sent me parts and info free as well. This is a fact. The reason why you haven't benefited from this is probably due to the attitude you are exhibiting... or that you haven't been around long enough to have faith in how this works.
I'm not saying you are rude by nature but you are being rude right now. Hopefully you can calm down. No one has threatened you. Just chill and let it go. Start a new post about your questions and let all know what you are thinking about it. I doubt it will go without an answer.
Also, if you see something wrong with a layout or schem you can post politely or PM the person about any errors and good things will happen. Again, this is a fact. If you can't deal with that then this is probably not the place for you. Check back in 10 years.
Sven
I think it might be appropriate here to give a little background on the 124 layout I did here Just to give you an idea of how it was created..Maybe this will help clear the air on it's accuracy!
124 was the 1st really accurate layout to be placed here (and as far as I know the 1st put on the www!)..There were others? a few HRM's,but nothing like 124!..It was GROUND BREAKING! and it's been here forever (2008) and has been viewed 9,450 times..
(btw If you Google Dumble Overdrive Special/images it's#12 just after Ceriatone) https://www.google.com/search?q=dumble+ ... 6&dpr=1.13
Although I did do the layout the real hero's here are Gil & Billy..
They were the ones that actually supplied all the pics and info on 124!
This was also a group effort here from many of the dedicated and talented builders who reviewed the layout and added their knowledge to circuit designs and their experience spending time inside the real deal..124 has been discussed and tested here ad nauseum!..Probably one of the most dissected and discussed amplifiers here at TAG!!..A 124 search here will lead you to some discussion to virtually every aspect of this amp...
I did the drawing right from the dozens of Hi Rez shots presented by Gil..If you notice in the layout I did specify the type of caps/resistors/Transformer codes/voltages/Type of wire/even lead dress I tried to keep tight..Literally every wire in this amp was traced checked again and checked again by myself and is time tested of probably over 100 builds I would bet!..This was one of the very 1st layouts I did and was still getting used to the Visio program,could it be better?..Sure however there really should be everything there that you need to build a good sounding 124 replica amp..So with this being said I have to say I am a bit confused and sorry to hear you are having trouble with the layout..If you have any questions please feel free to PM me and I will be happy to work with you to clear up any issues you might have!!
As Far as the Ceriatone ordeal?.Many know how I feel about all that so I wont go there again..That was a long time ago!, but I will say that shortly after we all worked here together to put together one of the 1st accurately documented Dumble Overdrive Special Nik followed in classic fashion and offered that kit so any changes on his layouts from mine were not in the original 124 ODS!..I farted in his direction and the rest is history..
Then he did 183 and 102 Ford amp (he called the Mustang something or other B.S ) At the time he was usually in our rear view mirror with respect to how to wire up an ODS..
All The Best!!
Tony
Last edited by talbany on Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
) At the time he was usually in our rear view mirror with respect to how to wire up an ODS..