Odyssey Layout & Schematic

Overdrive Special, Steel String Singer, Dumbleland, Odyssey, Winterland, etc. -
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markr14850
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Re: Odyssey Layout & Schematic

Post by markr14850 »

talbany wrote:No like I mentioned..The Odyssey amps appear to have Schmitt feeding two independent CFs; Driving the output tube grids..
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the Odyssey schematic Aaron posted doesn't seem to have any cathode followers.
Max
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Re: Odyssey Layout & Schematic

Post by Max »

talbany wrote:A Simple No would have worked fine..
But "No" wasn't my answer as IMO this topic isn't that simple. :D

Cheers,

Max
talbany
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Re: Odyssey Layout & Schematic

Post by talbany »

markr14850 wrote:
talbany wrote:No like I mentioned..The Odyssey amps appear to have Schmitt feeding two independent CFs; Driving the output tube grids..
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the Odyssey schematic Aaron posted doesn't seem to have any cathode followers.
:oops: I thought the plate and cathode were reversed..So correction.Common cathode (long tail pair) and driver..

Thanks,.
But "No" wasn't my answer as IMO this topic isn't that simple.
So there is no answer?

Tony
Last edited by talbany on Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
Max
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Re: Odyssey Layout & Schematic

Post by Max »

talbany wrote: :oops: I thought the plate and cathode were reversed..So correction.Common cathode and driver..
Tony, are you still completely sure that the inverter / driver configuration that you see in Winterland #003 is a rather different one than the one you see on the Odyssey pictures and that is shown in the Odysssey schematic posted in this thread?

And are you still completely sure that the inverter / driver configuration that you see in the Winterland is far more similar to the one that you see in the attached schematic of SSS#002 posted here: http://ampgarage.com/forum/download/file.php?id=22111 ?

Cheers,

Max
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Last edited by Max on Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
talbany
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Re: Odyssey Layout & Schematic

Post by talbany »

Max wrote:
talbany wrote: :oops: I thought the plate and cathode were reversed..So correction.Common cathode and driver..
Tony, are you still completely sure that the driver / inverter configuration that you see in Winterland #003 is a rather different one than the one you see on the Odyssey pictures and that is shown in the Odysssey schematic posted in this thread?

And are you still completely sure that the inverter / driver configuration that you see in the Winterland is far more similar to the one that you see in the attached schematic of SSS#002 posted here: http://ampgarage.com/forum/download/file.php?id=22111 ?

Cheers,

Max
Max Pretty sure..The Winterland closely resembles the Williamson (see pic below)Split load..
The Odyssey is LTP (common cathode) and driver
They both appear to have similar driver set ups accept for the .22 couplers on the Winterland vs the .1 for the Odyssey which is more than likely set up for guitar and that Winterland for bass..I assume?
(The give away is the common cathode on V1 and V2 of the Odyssey.. The Winterland has no shared cathode on V2..If they were similar both V2 and V3 of the Winterland would be shared like the Odyssey..

We know the SSS has Cathode followers driving the grids..The Odyssey and Winterland do not..


Tony
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Max
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Re: Odyssey Layout & Schematic

Post by Max »

talbany wrote:So the Winterland has been the forerunner of the Dumbleland
Tony, I have some doubts concerning this. Let me explain why:

According to what Michael Husser – the first owner of Winterland #003 and #004 - posted here

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/2238637-post1.html
http://www.harmonycentral.com/products/96203

Alexander Dumble built Winterland #003 in 1968.

And Alexander Dumble tells here http://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/s ... /Articles/ :

"I actually started making a series of amplifiers called the Dumbleland in about '66"

And there he tells, too "That … [the Dumbleland – Max] … was the forerunner of the Steel-String Singer." And according to the SSS data sheets, the SSS100W and the SSS150W both are guitar amps.

And because of this I personally assume that the Dumbleland was introduced in '66 as a guitar amp.

Some more reasons why I assume this:

- If in ’66 the Dumbleland would have been introduced as a bass amp, IMO there wouldn’t have been an urgent need to build a special "Winterland" bass amp for Michael Husser in 1968. IMO 220W with low THD out of the Dynaco OT of Winterland #003 might be a bit optimistic anyway - even with 4 KT88. And I doubt that some few db more clean volume out of an amp with perhaps a bit more output in comparison with a supposed 150W Dumbleland bass amp would have been a reason urgent enough to justify the design of a new Winterland bass amp for Michael Husser in '68 - only two years after the introduction of such a supposed Dumbleland 150W bass amp in '66.

- If the Dumbleland would have been introduced in '66 as a bass amp, the Dumbleland wouldn't have been "too much power and too silky clean for people" - as Alexander Dumble states - because AFAIK bass players like powerful clean amps.

So I assume that the Dumbleland 150W was introduced in '66 as a guitar amp. And according to Michael Husser the Winterlands #003 and #004 are 220W bass amps.

Further I assume that at some later point in time the Winterland bass amps for whatever reasons have been replaced in the portfolio of Alexander Dumble by the Dumbleland 150W version for bass.

AFAIK the Dumbleland Special 150W for guitar (BTW: according to the 1978 price list the Dumbleland Special 150W was available with reverb) was continuously built - and since the introduction of the SSS100W parallel to the SSS100W - until the Dumbleland Special 150W for guitar was succeeded in the early eighties by the SSS 150W. So IMO the SSS 150W built for SRV will be more or less similar to a Dumbleland Special 150W equipped with the available reverb option.

These are some of the reasons why I have doubts concerning the opinion that the Winterland - a bass amp - is the forerunner of the Dumbleland and that the Dumbleland has been designed and introduced in '66 as a bass amp. But the Winterland might be the forerunner of the Dumbleland 150W version for bass introduced at some later point in time. AFAIR a Dumbleland 150W version for bass I've seen listed for the first time in a late seventies / early eighties Dumble price list. But I'll check this again.
We know the SSS has Cathode followers driving the grids..
IMO we (in the sense of "this community") only know this in regard to SSS #001 and #002. And these are only 2 of all the SSSs. IMO not such a promising statistical database for a generalisation like "the SSS has…"
The Odyssey and Winterland do not..
At least in the sense of "all Odysseys and Winterlands" this would IMO be an assumption based on the pictures of only one single Winterland and AFAIR very few Odyssey amps. And IMO this might not be a very solid statistical database either.
They ... [Odyssey and Winterland - Max] ... both appear to have similar driver set ups accept for the .22 couplers on the Winterland vs the .1 for the Odyssey
The "driver set up" - how AFAIU you call the way of coupling the driver to the grids of the power tubes - shown in the schematic of the Williamson circuit appears indeed to be similar to the "driver set up" shown in the Odyssey schematic posted in this thread with - as you write - the exception of the .22 couplers in this Williamson schematic vs the .1 for the Odyssey.
which is more than likely set up for guitar...I assume?
AFAIK the first Odyssey power amps have been designed to be a part of the public address system of a club in Santa Cruz located at or near Odyssey Ct in Santa Cruz.
I was just wondering if you ever happend across a Dland (perhaps transition) that used an earlier Winterland driver?
AFAIR I know a Dumbleland Special 150W with a "driver setup" - as I assume you call the way of coupling the driver to the grids of the power tubes - similar to the one shown in the schematic of the Williamson circuit posted by you. But AFAIR the value of the coupling caps between the driver and the grids of the power tubes isn’t .22 in this Dumbleland Special 150W.

All the best and have a great time!

Max
talbany
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Re: Odyssey Layout & Schematic

Post by talbany »

Max
Thanks for taking the time do go into some details..Very informative.. :wink:

I think I understand what you are getting at with reference to that type of driver configurations used in certain amps with the same name..
Keep in mind that like most boutique amp builders The Williamson might have been a starting point for his design (similar to the Magnatone trem in SSS 001) then his subsequent modification of that particular circuit.. This makes it rather difficult to say for certain that he used that circuit as a baseline..You just have to draw from the similarities and and have a general conclusion.. Thanks Again !!

Have a Great weekend!

Tony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
Max
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Re: Odyssey Layout & Schematic

Post by Max »

Max wrote: AFAIR a Dumbleland 150W version for bass I've seen listed for the first time in a late seventies / early eighties Dumble price list. But I'll check this again.
Up to now I did only find one price list with a "Dumbleland Bass 150W" listed - the one of "January 1, 1986".

Here are all the Steel String Singers and Dumblelands listed in this 1986 price list:

Steel String Singer 120W.......$3,350
Steel String Singer 150W.......$3,520
Dumbleland Bass 150W.........$3,145
Dumbleland Special 150W......$3,390
Dumbleland Special 300SL.....$3,935

So the Dumbleland Special 150W was still available for some time after the introduction of the SSS 150W - at least until 1986. As the price of the Dumbleland Bass 150W is a bit lower than the price of the Dumbleland Special 150W I assume that the Dumbleland Bass might not have been equipped with the filters of the Dumbleland Special - at least not as a standard feature - similar to the Winterland bass amps built for Michael Husser that don't have the filters, either. The price of the SSS 150W is a bit higher than the price of the Dumbleland Special 150W - IMO probably because reverb was a standard SSS150W feature but not a standard Dumbleland Special 150W feature.
talbany wrote:I think I understand what you are getting at with reference to that type of driver configurations used in certain amps with the same name..
In the data sheet of the SSS150W from around the same time as this price list (1986) the twin triode tube compliment (5 twin triodes) is specified to be rather different from the twin triode tube compliment you see on the pictures of SSS #001 (8 twin triodes) and #002 (7 twin triodes) e.g.:

"TUBE COMPLIMENT

4 x 7025 high-mu twin triodes
1 x 5751 high-mu twin triode
4 x 6550A beam power tubes
"

And it might be interesting that this twin triode tube compliment of a SSS 150W specifies only one twin triode more than the twin triode tube compliment you see on the pictures of some of the Dumbleland Special 150W amps posted in the internet (2 x 7025, 1 x 12AU7, 1 x 12BH7), e.g. Dumbleland Special 150W #009: http://www.maverick-music.com/vintage-a ... pecial-009 .

The OT of the SSS150W is specified to be "4 ohms and 8 ohms switchable" in this data sheet, so obviously different from the 4, 8, 16 ohms OT you see on some pictures of Dumbleland Special 150W amps posted in the internet, e. g. Dumbleland Special 150W #009: http://www.maverick-music.com/vintage-a ... pecial-009 .

The "Power Requirement" of a SSS 150W is specified to be "540VA at full output" in this data sheet. And this (540VA) is exactly the same "Power Requiremet" as specified on the back of Dumbleland Special #009 e.g.: http://www.maverick-music.com/vintage-a ... pecial-009 .

So IMO it might be worth the time to study all the similarities and all the differences between the known specimens of the Odyssey, the Winterland, the Dumbleland Bass 150W, the Dumbleland Special 150W, the Dumbleland 300SL, the SSS 100W, the SSS 120W, the SSS 150W, the ODS 150W, the ODS 120W Reverb (e. g. #0137 http://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/s ... 20%230137/ ) etc with some patience and with some passion for detail.

Cheers to all here,

Max
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Re: Odyssey Layout & Schematic

Post by Max »

markr14850 wrote:
alvarezh wrote:If I may, and if I am not derailing, what is (are?) the advantage(s) of this double tube PI (as opposed to the single tube, of course) which is also used on the SSS?
Note that they are different. In this case, the signal is taken off the plate, with a low value plate resistor, and then AC coupled to the power tube grids.

In the SSS, the signal is taken from the cathode, and DC coupled to the grids.

I assume that the intention in both cases is to have a low impedance driving the grids - possibly to enter class AB2. With the AC coupling, you may have a greater chance of blocking distortion, due to charge changes across the coupling caps when the grids start to conduct.
Does someone here know if the loop gain and / or other parameters of the overall performance of the power amp might be affected to some considerable degree by the fact if

- the inverter is a 12AU7 and the driver a 12BH7 and the anode of this 12BH7 driver is connected to the grids of the power tubes with a capacitor in this connection in an inverter / driver configuration like the one shown in this schematic of some Odyssey power amp: http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 153#219153

or

– the inverter is a 7025 and the driver is a 7025 and the cathode of this 7025 driver is connected to the grids of the power tubes without a capacitor in this connection in an inverter / driver configuration like the one shown in this schematic of SSS #002: http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 738#204738 ?

Cheers,

Max
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AtomCap
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Re: x-formers

Post by AtomCap »

AtomCap wrote:Would it use twin/showman trannies for output & power?
[img:600:402]http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/imag ... 007f/l.jpg[/img]
Any takers?
Max
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Re: x-formers

Post by Max »

AtomCap wrote:Would it use twin/showman trannies for output & power?
IMO the transformers shown on the pictures of Odyssey amps look very similar to the Fender transformers you'll find in other 100W Dumble amps built around the same time. AFAIK some Odyssey amps have a 4 ohm OT and some an 8 ohm OT.

The chassis of the early Odyssey amps are similar to the chassis of the 1st generation ODS amps e.g. - with a separate front plate and a separate back plate. The chassis of the later Odyssey amps don't have a separate front plate and a separate back plate and are similar to the chassis of the 2nd and 3rd generation ODS amps e.g.

Cheers,

Max
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JazzGuitarGimp
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Re: Odyssey Layout & Schematic

Post by JazzGuitarGimp »

I am curious about the voltage across V7. I don't see any reference to tube types on the schematic, but I assume it's a 12A_7 variant. We have +379V on the anodes and -40.4V on the cathodes for a whopping 419.4V across the tube! Even if this were a 12AU7 or 12AX7, both of which having a max anode voltage of 330V, we wind up with nearly 90V over the design limits of the tube. Can this tube be expected to have a long service life?
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Max
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Re: Odyssey Layout & Schematic

Post by Max »

JazzGuitarGimp wrote:I am curious about the voltage across V7. I don't see any reference to tube types on the schematic, but I assume it's a 12A_7 variant.
As there are references to the tube types on this Odyssey schematic http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 153#219153: What schematic are you referring to? The schematic of Steel String Singer #002 http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 438#219438 ? If so, you might post this question in the "SSS 002 LAYOUT" thread http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19049 ?

Cheers,

Max
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Re: Odyssey Layout & Schematic

Post by JazzGuitarGimp »

Max wrote:
JazzGuitarGimp wrote:I am curious about the voltage across V7. I don't see any reference to tube types on the schematic, but I assume it's a 12A_7 variant.
As there are references to the tube types on this Odyssey schematic http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 153#219153: What schematic are you referring to? The schematic of Steel String Singer #002 http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 438#219438 ? If so, you might post this question in the "SSS 002 LAYOUT" thread http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19049 ?

Cheers,

Max
Will do.

Thanks you, Max,
Lou
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Aaron
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Re: Odyssey Layout & Schematic

Post by Aaron »

I forgot to mention that I have updated the schematic to the suggested values for the P.I. 20k and 17k instead of 10k and 4k7 on pins 1 and 6.

See original post.

Thanks,
Aaron
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