Big rehash - Strat into Dumble - what really works

[vibratoking]

I've read ALL the threads regarding this. I mean ALL of them. I started with a 183 with 6L6 output section. Humbuckers sound great, Tele is good but not great, Strat is anemic. This is plugged into the normal input. I've been plugging my Strat and Tele into the FET input, which is a big improvement over the normal input but still not awesome like the humbucker into the normal.

Here is what I have tried based on previous threads:

- put slope resistor and mid cap on a switch. I've read great things about this mod, but I don't hear great things.
- classic tone stack vs skyliner. MAYBE a little improvement, but almost nothing in the big scheme of things.
- various high plate low plate and combination plates. MAYBE a little improvement, but almost nothing in the big scheme of things. These don't result in the big changes that I expected?
- bright switching on cleans and mid switching on OD. Helpful tweaks, but very small tangible results.
- various tweaks in the Dlator, but the Dlator really doesn't change the HB vs SC situation.

What I plan to try:
- bluesmaster PI with 12AX7
- bluesmaster tone stack with Gary's trick.
- AB763 PI with 12AT7
- AB763 clean channel with some sort of Dstyle OD
- Adjust OD trimmer
- Adjust GNFB

What I am missing with the strat and tele is chimey, lively cleans, like my 65 SR, and a elastic, fat, singing OD. The strat and tele really aren't that enjoyable to play with this amp. They are good but not great into the FET input.

My LPs have more chime than my strat or tele through the clean side. This isn't the case with these guitars on many other amps. I am starting to feel that my Dclone is a humbucker only machine. I've made many changes, but none of them has changed the basic SC character of this amp.

There just seems to be no SC magic in this amp. I'd appreciate any comments.

[John_P_WI]

VK, Tonegeek gets some good strat tones here:

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... aster+bass


Or how about a re-wire to a bluesmaster pre / tone stack here and use Gary's trick:

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... aster+bass

[vibratoking]

Or how about a re-wire to a bluesmaster pre / tone stack here and use Gary's trick:

Thanks for reminding me about that one. I read it and didn't focus in on it enough. I'll add that to the list.

[rogb]

I'm with you all the way on this VK. AFter BM mods to my Deluxe, I have been thinking whether to do the same to the 102.
I am more worried about messing up the clean which I like to get the OD to sing with SCs.

The Tele is best though.

Like you the FET is the only place for the Strat.

[mhartman]

Take a look at these and see if you can pick something up. This is supposed to be an ODS that Dumble voiced for a strat

[talbany]

I've read ALL the threads regarding this. I mean ALL of them. I started with a 183 with 6L6 output section. Humbuckers sound great, Tele is good but not great, Strat is anemic. This is plugged into the normal input. I've been plugging my Strat and Tele into the FET input, which is a big improvement over the normal input but still not awesome like the humbucker into the normal.

Here is what I have tried based on previous threads:

- put slope resistor and mid cap on a switch. I've read great things about this mod, but I don't hear great things.
- classic tone stack vs skyliner. MAYBE a little improvement, but almost nothing in the big scheme of things.
- various high plate low plate and combination plates. MAYBE a little improvement, but almost nothing in the big scheme of things. These don't result in the big changes that I expected?
- bright switching on cleans and mid switching on OD. Helpful tweaks, but very small tangible results.
- various tweaks in the Dlator, but the Dlator really doesn't change the HB vs SC situation.

What I plan to try:
- bluesmaster PI with 12AX7
- bluesmaster tone stack with Gary's trick.
- AB763 PI with 12AT7
- AB763 clean channel with some sort of Dstyle OD

What I am missing with the strat and tele is chimey, lively cleans, like my 65 SR, and a elastic, fat, singing OD. The strat and tele really aren't that enjoyable to play with this amp. They are good but not great into the FET input.

My LPs have more chime than my strat or tele through the clean side. This isn't the case with these guitars on many other amps. I am starting to feel that my Dclone is a humbucker only machine. I've made many changes, but none of them has changed the basic SC character of this amp.

There just seems to be no SC magic in this amp. I'd appreciate any comments.

So on goes this story..Here is my take!!..Strat's and Tele's do not do the high gain saturated OD thing well in these amps you mention...There are always tradeoffs involved with cascaded (clean feeds OD) style amps..Humbuckers always do the high gain thing better..They tend to stay better focused on the low end and have a more prominent low mid sonic punch higher output and darker that works much better when amplified 100000 times. if you are one who likes to run the drive up Humbuckers are the way to go!!..
Lower output Strat and some Tele's don't do as well at higher gain settings..They tend to go loose and can get buzzy and harsh since they don't have the low mid output gain like a humbucker..If you keep the gain down and think of the OD as an extension of the clean (bigger with a bit more hair/crunch,compression) they seem to do just fine run like this!!..Some people here have had good results by running the input vol up high and keep the drive low and increase the OD vol and pus the mids..(D-lators can help too by allowing you to push the master)Modifying the amp might help you but will NEVER be the same as a hot PAF!!
I recently picked up a Gibson 339 and loaded in a JB (coil tap) on the bridge and made some compromise and works great for me!!..Perhaps you should look into a coil tap setup?
There I said it!!

For those more experienced builders out there please let me know if you have a different take on this!!

All The Best!!

Tony

[67plexi]

I think you're missing the boat a skyline eq is dark sounding not clean and chimney.
High plate high plate for a Stratocaster 220k/150k ?????
Build a new amp like #124 in its original form low plate classic not a high plate #183
Just curious why 6L6GC in a #183 it makes no sense to me #183 was designed around EL34's
I'm with Tony on this one. May be the reason I use at least three amps with channel switching.
With my #183 build with a real 1956 Stratocaster sounds like Robin Trower midrange crunch.

Steve.

[vibratoking]

JPW, rog, mhartman, Tony, Steve - Thanks for the replies. Much of what you guys have said confirms my experience.

Tony - I'm glad you said it. There are many guys chasing this SC thing. Alot of the previous threads have interesting info, but I don't think those mods will get a SC guy where he wants to go. I am not running super high OD with any guitar...SCs just don't dance like HBs...even at low gain.

I think you're missing the boat a skyline eq is dark sounding not clean and chimney.

Not missing the boat. I have changed to Classic(124) tonestack. No tangible difference to my ear.

Build a new amp like #124 in its original form low plate classic not a high plate #183

124 is not that far from 183 as far as the preamp goes. As stated above I have already changed my 183ish build to low plate with classic tonestack. Not much tangible difference to my ear. Granted that I have stayed with the precision supply. I have also changed the pre to 102...also not much difference IMO.

Just curious why 6L6GC in a #183 it makes no sense to me #183 was designed around EL34's

I didn't do the original build, it was done by a TAG member. This amp is not the only one like this. There are quite a few 183 pres with 6L6 power sections. It's an easy mod to get most of the way there.


I'm with ya with regarding using different amps. If I could tweak my Dclone to work better with SCs, then I'd only need to bring one amp to gigs instead of several.

[ToneMerc]

I like 150/120 straight across,classic TS, .033-.039 mid cap, 120k slope, 10uf V1b only and reg PI.

TM

[talbany]

Tony - I'm glad you said it. There are many guys chasing this SC thing. Alot of the previous threads have interesting info, but I don't think those mods will get a SC guy where he wants to go. I am not running super high OD with any guitar...SCs just don't dance like HBs...even at low gain.

Not to beat this thing up and too be clear..I've heard some Singles played (recorded) through some of my amps (set up right) at moderate gain settings that sound pretty nice (your right not the same) and do have there place for some of those out there who are looking for that tone.. Robben through his 102 with his Tele is a prime example..My point here is try to know what it is you are looking for before going down that road..I know it's confusing!!..I only hope this helps some of you!!

Let's dispel this myth right here!!.. Just because it's the almighty and holy Dumble!!.. It still cannot please all guitars and all ears..Good luck with the mods guy's


Tony

[aflynt]

I think a lot of it is down to the individual guitar, honestly. My strat and p-90 equipped Les Paul sound great through my 102 clones. My m-series humbucker equipped Anderson hollow t not so much though.

As far as going from chimy cleans to fat od goes, I think that IS tricky on a strat. Upping the voltage on V1 and 2 plates seemed to help the most with that for me since in a lot of ways it's a feel thing and lower voltages feel squishier. The problem is that then the od starts to get too unforgiving and clanky feeling on the strat when the voltage is higher especially if you're going for fat and singing. My solution is to use a mid boost on the strat for that fat sound and set up the amp for warm shimmery clean and chirpy od with the boost off.

-Aaron

[exocet]

I've tried the mid cap switch and LNFB On/ Off. Out of those two, the mid cap had the biggest and most positive impact.

My view is that the high plate skyliner is too clean and mid heavy for a Strat. I have a Holland Lil' Jimi that has a very simple 100k plate load single tube preamp stage and it absolutely sings with a Strat. the Holland gain stages are biased "hot" with 820 ohm cathode resistors on V1a and b, this imparts some lovely chime that really suits the Strat tone in my opinion.

As Tony stated, less front end gain works better with strats on the High plate skyliner.

[rogb]

The most important thing I've learned building all these different Dumble generation amps is they are in a class by themselves..Dumbles are unlike a Fender and Marshall and most other amps I've played and granted some generations you can get pretty close there is always something very different and unique about them..For me personally these amps don't replace my finely tuned Marshalls or Fenders..My misconception was if I build this Dumble X amp, that this would be the amp to replace those amps but that has not turned out to be the case..So for those thinking that this generation will be the amp that does everything, this might not come true..(it has not for me) They certainly are much more versatile than those amps and each generation has it's own sonic flare after you lock in to all the little nuances these amps are known, for me are by far the most enjoyable to play..It has been stated here many times that some players simply don't get the Dumble trip, if they are comparing these amps to other types and want it to be something it is not.. As wonderfull as these amps are they may not do everything spot on and you can easily tweak yourself mad trying..All the Dumble style amps I've built and tried have that uniqueness about them and have accepted them for what they are very different than other amps.. For me IMHO is the common thread that runs through them all..

I hope this Helps..
Tony

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=30

Here is a post by Tony from 2011 which make a lot of sense.
However, always one to ignore good sense, I did some tweaking today.

V1 to low plates 100K and 1K5 cathodes.
V2 to medium plate 120/180K.
Slope to 150K.
I tried the #124 330pF cap but didn't like that so the .002 went back in.
So far, without a lot of listening time, I like what I hear and feel.
HAD tweaked the amp to suit the client, and so we may need to do the same ourselves.

[talbany]

FWIW..Something to keep in mind when tweaking and modding these amps!!
Each individual amp that you build (even the same model) will have it's own personality!!..By this I mean each amp will have certain nuances that satisfies your individual tastes..This includes feel as well.. I generally build my model or gen amp just like my layout's..After the amp is working properly I AWYAYS give the amp time to grow on me (play it on a few gigs)..I'll try different guitars and even some pedals..You WILL find certain nuances about that amp that you like and want to keep!!.. The trick with modding and tweaking these are how to modify the amp and still leave those things you like about it?

The Overdrive section is alway's easiest but the clean side and output section (and D-lator) mods are more challenging since these effects both clean and OD sections!!.. By tweaking these sections you might lose those nuances you want to preserve and pretty much have to start over again ( the mad factor)..Things that are discussed here (S Coils) are more of a topology/design issue since many here have had this problem!!..
Changing the design of the amp entirely might get you closer to what it is you like to hear however the next guy might not like it as much or might not work so well with his guitars so I am always hesitant about recommending such a change here in an open forum..Although I think it is a good thing by recommending the mods and give that person some options we should keep in mind that some of the more drastic changes have a very good chance of not working for that amp and individual,or worse losing the nuances that person wants to keep!!

What to do? what to do?

Tony

[tag101]

I've read ALL the threads regarding this. I mean ALL of them. I started with a 183 with 6L6 output section. Humbuckers sound great, Tele is good but not great, Strat is anemic. This is plugged into the normal input. I've been plugging my Strat and Tele into the FET input, which is a big improvement over the normal input but still not awesome like the humbucker into the normal.

Here is what I have tried based on previous threads:

- put slope resistor and mid cap on a switch. I've read great things about this mod, but I don't hear great things.
- classic tone stack vs skyliner. MAYBE a little improvement, but almost nothing in the big scheme of things.
- various high plate low plate and combination plates. MAYBE a little improvement, but almost nothing in the big scheme of things. These don't result in the big changes that I expected?
- bright switching on cleans and mid switching on OD. Helpful tweaks, but very small tangible results.
- various tweaks in the Dlator, but the Dlator really doesn't change the HB vs SC situation.

What I plan to try:
- bluesmaster PI with 12AX7
- bluesmaster tone stack with Gary's trick.
- AB763 PI with 12AT7
- AB763 clean channel with some sort of Dstyle OD

What I am missing with the strat and tele is chimey, lively cleans, like my 65 SR, and a elastic, fat, singing OD. The strat and tele really aren't that enjoyable to play with this amp. They are good but not great into the FET input.

My LPs have more chime than my strat or tele through the clean side. This isn't the case with these guitars on many other amps. I am starting to feel that my Dclone is a humbucker only machine. I've made many changes, but none of them has changed the basic SC character of this amp.

There just seems to be no SC magic in this amp. I'd appreciate any comments.

# 183 Sounds AMAZING with a Strat. Nice big cleans (though never as good as a fender, no Dumble is IMO) and a killer overdrive. All it takes is kicking on the mid switch for overdriven tones (No PAB!) Of course that gives ME what "I" like! (Fendery cleans and Fat, smoother overdriven tones) 183 is simply over the top with a Tele. At least the real 183 and the Quinn clones. Its as good as it gets.