BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Overdrive Special, Steel String Singer, Dumbleland, Odyssey, Winterland, etc. -
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j0k3335
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Re: BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Post by j0k3335 »

@Martin and @Marcus : so, finally, that's good news :D

Thanks for the info :wink:
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pompeiisneaks
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Re: BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Post by pompeiisneaks »

j0k3335 wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:08 am
martin manning wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:20 am So where are you located? That might help members her to point you to resources.
In France, near Paris. France is not the best place concerning guitars, amps, gears !
not a lot of choice, High prices caused by, most of the time, custom fees [ +27% :roll: ]
So, impossible to find and try a Ceriatone, a Fuchs, a Caroll Ann, ... I don't talk about Bludotone, Glasswerk, ... ... Only some Two Rock and, of course lot of low price Fender, Marshall, ...
It becomes even difficult to find a PRS "Core" guitar !

Concerning components : we have some great shops. But not a lot about "NOS", so for your NOS Sylvania, Brimar, ... : you have to look in USA ( some in UK too ).

... but I've a little stock :)
Si tu as besoin d'un traducteur, je pourrais vous aidez :)

~Phil
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drew
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Re: BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Post by drew »

j0k3335 wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:24 am
I would like to be able to start from scratch and choose myself every parts ... but as I have mentioned previously I'm too dummies ( Dumb :) ) for a such complex "complete" build :cry: :oops:
A Dumble clone has more components than amps typically recommended for beginners (tweed Champ etc.) but really is not so much more complicated. If you don't worry about trying to find Unobtainium NOS parts, then ordering components is straightforward. The building skills required are the same. It will just take more time to finish the Dumble, and the higher parts count will give you more chances to make a mistake.

I'm not saying you *should* build one, but if it's something you would *like* to do, and you would have the time, patience, and attention to detail to do it, then don't let a fear of complexity stop you. My first amp was a D'Lite (slightly simplified lower power Dumble clone) which I made completely "paint-by-numbers" style, following the available documentation. I sourced all the parts myself and even made the circuit boards from scratch.
j0k3335
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Re: BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Post by j0k3335 »

@Phil : merci pour la proposition car je suis ... juste en Anglais et ... pire en Dumble :mrgreen: ( surtout quand je vois le niveau de connaissances des spécialistes ici !!! )
Merci donc :wink:

@drew : there is another problem == not any space at home to have all the parts, Multimeter, soldering iron, ..., !!! (On the table of the stay, it makes mess :mrgreen: ) .
So a Ceriatone head on the top of the cab, with some caps, some resistors, ..., is more acceptable !

... until now, the "auction" is not going really good :( ... Anyway, I will wait for the next one if this is not the good one :)
j0k3335
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Re: BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Post by j0k3335 »

Finally this Bluesmater HRM head is home !

... and I'm very, very disappointed ! :oops:

May be the guy is here on Amp Garage but anyway !

On the other hand, The one that will be happy is ANDY ( FUCHS ) : comparing to my ODS30 it's really night and day !!!

As opposed to this Fuchs which I can get some really serious, nice sounds ( and with a serial/parallel loop and a reverb, ... ! ), this Bluesmaster is BASSY , like ... a bass amp ... and that's all !
Oh, yes, and the OD with or without HRM are fuzzy as hell :cry:

Furthermore, this head had already be modified BUT I didn't have the schematic or layout of the mods !!! (despite the commitment of the seller!) == Don't forget that I'm a dummy/beginner : I can make a mod IF I CAN start from the correct schematic or layout ! But that's all ! ( and my mind works better with a schematic !? )

And this head is not really "neat" : I know this is a "second-hand" and the price was "normal" ( only normal anyway, not cheap ! ), but screws missing, tubes not correctly packaged and "floating" all around, tubes protections are missing, some switches hardly tight, a volume pot getting old, and a chassis put back so quickly that some pieces of leather have been taken off and now exceed the control panel !!!

I'm not a maniac BUT when you pay the price AND have ALL this disagreements ... it's a little bit boring and spoils a little fun and thus the impression of having had to do to someone who gives little importance to the correction of the sale!

It will be a really hard work for me to find a correct layout ( Ceriatone doesn't provide schematic if I understand well ?! :cry: :cry: ) and make a "reverse-engineering" to understand the mods done.

Then try to understand what is going bad for such bassy sounds ( in any configurations/situations ! :cry: ) and such Fuzzy OD ( nothing to do with "Dumble" OD :shock: ), then try to modify it to my own taste ...

For now, I don't even open it : I wish to see what will happened first with the seller !

BUT if I keep this head : You are now SURE that I will need your help, advices, ...

( First : if somebody can indicate me a TRUSTED layout -and eventually schematic- of such Ceriatone Bluesmaster HRM ? I know ... that you don't like to much to speak about Ceriatone, but please, understand that the Ceriatone forum seems most of the time "dead", and anyway I feel more confident here :) )

NOTA : @ pompeiisneaks : Phil don't hesitate to tell me if my American language could be understand and eventually correct me :D

NOTA2 : ANDY, if you will have provided me a schematic for my ODS30 ... no doubt that I will have buy another one ( instead of this crap ) to modify it to my own taste ! ( or better , an ODS50 to have , this time, the pleasure of Fixed bias !) ... But no doubt, the proof is made that your ODS are really excellent and in a class of their own!
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67plexi
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Re: BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Post by 67plexi »

Photo's Please on your fake HRM not a clone.
A voltage chart would help.
And a HRM would not be the pick of the litter in my book.
#215 HRM.jpg
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M Fowler
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Re: BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Post by M Fowler »

I own a Ceriatone Bluesmaster HRM and it sounds great no mods needed.

Perhaps the HRM needs to be adjusted, how to do that is in the Dumble Files section here on Ampgarage, must be logged in to view.

I am attaching information on the various OTS models for you to understand how each model varies.

Mark
Ceriatone OTS Model differences.doc
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j0k3335
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Re: BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Post by j0k3335 »

67plexi wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:00 pm Photo's Please on your fake HRM not a clone.
A voltage chart would help.
And a HRM would not be the pick of the litter in my book.

#215 HRM.jpg
Will not be home tomorrow BUT photos as soon as possible :wink:

Thanks for your answer and interest !
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Re: BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Post by j0k3335 »

M Fowler wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:24 pm I own a Ceriatone Bluesmaster HRM and it sounds great no mods needed.

Perhaps the HRM needs to be adjusted, how to do that is in the Dumble Files section here on Ampgarage, must be logged in to view.

I am attaching information on the various OTS models for you to understand how each model varies.

MarkCeriatone OTS Model differences.doc
As said in the previous post : not home tomorrow.
But the days after, It will be open , I will take photos and show the mods, the previous owner have done : may be this will help to
discover what don't please me with all these bass and the Fuzzy OD. ( AND/OR send me to some better topic on Bluesmaster mods !? )

Thanks for the real interesting docs !!!

There is a little difference between Dumble and Ceriatone Bluesmaster !? : Ceriatone explains that the tone stack is a little bit different to provide more "fender" clean sounds but keep
a smooth overdrive ( a little "more precise and harmonically complex" ) and it was what I was looking for ! ( to complet my Fuchs ODS30 that is perfect for Dumble clean/Dumble dirty OD ! )

As soon, as it will be open, I will control everything ( bias, Pi trimmer, ... ) , try NOS tubes, ...
and let you know what is improved , what is not .

Many thanks for your answer :D
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M Fowler
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Re: BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Post by M Fowler »

I would not be able to use my BM HRM 100w as a high gain Marshall substitute it is way too clean for that type of tone.

So maybe that is what your having trouble with, it really is a one trick pony to me. I will have to revisit my amp, it's been a while since I played through it.

Maybe that Hot Rod Marshall/Hot Rubber Monkey should be Huge Real Mess (HRM) in your amps case.

Mark
10thTx
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Re: BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Post by 10thTx »

I am attaching information on the various OTS models for you to understand how each model varies
FYI, my computer gave me a pop up stating this download contained a virus.

with respect, 10thtx
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M Fowler
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Re: BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Post by M Fowler »

FYI
• On HRM, clean and OD channels have separate master volumes
• On Non-HRM, they share a master volume.
• When you add a Dumblelator, the return line is the master volume.
Non-HRM’s come to harmonic feedback easily. Mid-heavy. Rich w / sustain. Emphasis on mid harmonics. More singing sustain. OTS will sound a little warmer on the clean side compared to S&M.
HRM’s – more dynamic and percussive, very touch sensitive. Less OD. Not gritty or buzzy. Have internal trimmers for TMB. HRM series are 90s. The HRM is much gainier and tighter on the OD
Overtone Special
• Thicker and warmer than S & M
• Less O.D.
• Smoother and deeper sounding.
• OTS will sound a little warmer on the clean side compared to S&M.
Overtone Special S & M
• Much brighter OD and more aggressive.
• A rock machine, but not as good at cleans.
Overtone Special 183
?
Overtone Special FM (#102)
• Skyliner clean tone stack with a Non-HRM OD.
• More “Chime y” clean tones.
• More focused OD with a almost horn sound.
• Very bright amp.
• Needs a Dumbleator

Overtone HRM
• Stands for Hot Rubber Monkey
• Has a second tone stack just for the OD channel.
• Marshally
• Very refined
• More compression
• Smooth singing OD
• 6L6’s
• Jazzz fusion but can get dirty
Overtone HRM Bluesmaster
• Early raw Fender / Marshal tone on steroids. Like a Bassman
• Great Cleans (sing and sustain)
• Less smooth OD and much less compresed than above.
• OD is a bit raw and edgy. Meaty and fat. Lot’s of gain can be had.
• Cleans are very girthy and has more bass.
• Less clean headroom than all other OTS amps.
• Needs Dumbleator.
• Great blues / rock / jazz
• More cord friendly and string definition.
• Bluesmaster version has a smoother overdrive, but cannot be as
aggressive as the regular HRM.
• excellent cleans, but the OD isnt gainy but more articulate.
Overtone HRM MK II
• A bit more hair on both channels than the FM 50.
• OD is crunchier and more compressed than FM.
• EL34’s
Non HRM Classic EQ
• excellent cleans, but the OD isnt gainy but more articulate.Great sustain
• Singing OD
• Very touch sensitive and not much compression.
Non-HRM Skyliner EQ (Regular Overtone)
• Little less Fendery.
• EQ is a little more Dumbley
• Better cleans than above.Great sustain.
• Better string to string definition.
• The Presence is focused around the high freq. only.
-HRM Skyliner Non EQ
• Same as above, but gain stage is not classic Fender.
• More headroom, definition and punch.
• More alive cleans and smoother OD.
• Small bit of compression.
• Touch sensitiveOn HRM, clean and OD channels have separate master volumes
• On Non-HRM, they share an master volume.
• When you add a Dumbleator, the return line is the master volume.
Non-HRM’s come to harmonic feedback easily. Mid-heavy. Rich w / sustain. Emphasis on mid harmonics. More singing sustain. OTS will sound a little warmer on the clean side compared to S&M.
HRM’s – more dynamic and percussive, very touch sensitive. Less OD. Not gritty or buzzy. Have internal trimmers for TMB. HRM series are 90s. The HRM is much gainier and tighter on the OD



Ok here's some copy paste and edit from a other dclone builder:

Non Hrm classiq EQ is the oldest style of dumble amp. A bit more rooted in the
raw fenderish tone. This is the amp that made his reputation. This
would be like early Lindley, Browne, Lowell George, the first
incarnation of his amps.
It can sustain like a mofo! It is a singing OD for sure.
Not much compression, very touch sensitive and dynamic....

Second the Non-HRM Skyliner EQ low plate is a variation of the above. Dumble modded
several of his older amps with a new tone stack he was developing,
know as the skyline eq because it's output viewed on a scope resembled
a city skyline.
It is a little less Fender but still a somewhat lower gain affair. It
has the same gain as the vintage amp but the new EQ is more "signature dumble" and a little less Fender. Improved cleans from th Vintage model.
It still sustains like a mofo, has a bit better string to string definition and is a little more refined in the tone shaping.

Non-HRM Skyliner EQ high plate is where he went next, same as above but now the
gain staging is not classic fender. It has more headroom, definition, and punch, more lively and responsive cleans, smoother OD, and a small bit of compression, very touch sensitive, lots of sweet singing tones.

HRM Skyliner EQ HRM stands for
"Hot Rubber Monkey". This is a second tone stack just for the OD
channel. It is more or less a Marshall style tone stack this allows tone
shaping of the OD independent of the cleans.
A real Dumble of this ilk would be called a Skyline HRM. Smooth as silk, goes from clean to mean like no ones biz. Transition
between is amazing. You can pick clean, a bit dirty, grinding, soaring, all
with your hand and all smoothly with definition. No rasp or buzz. Very refined. Gorgeous smooth tones. A little more compression that the above amps but not in a bad way. Very natural. The dynamic response is second to none. This amps feels like it breathes with you after awhile.
Smooth singing overdrive, completely dynamic, never any rasp or buzz, no IM distortion or other uglies.

Blues Master. Think raw early Fender/Marshall
tone on steroids. The tone stack is decidedly bassman territory,
however because of Dumbles many other difference it is far better IMO.
The cleans here are the best cleans I think I have ever heard, dumble
or otherwise. The cleans will sing and sustain!!! The OD is much less smooth and much less compressed than the above amps. It has some early Marshall vibe to it. Boosted cleans with this amp are to die for. The OD is a bit more raw and edgy then some of the other offerings but with boosted cleans you get the smooth side of things and with the OD you have a less polite and refined tone.
Somewhat like the first Dumbles, though different. Lots of punch, sustain and singing but not as smooth as some of the other offerings. This one can be thick and dense too. Not dark and crappy, just "meaty"...
Open clean cleans to mean and a little rude.
Big fat sick blues machine. Lots of character or soul. This amp will try and steal you girl.Like a tuxedo on a cowboy?.... It can play nice but it can still stomp in the dirt.
last is the same as above with the HRM OD tone stack which gives a little more tone shaping and refining in the OD section.

FWIW Non_Hrm Skyliner EQ High plater is basically the OTS




Overtone Special (2x&L6) Skyliner nonHRM
Overtone Special 100 (4x6L6) Skyliner nonHRM
Very smooth and warm sounding OD, lots of OD on tap but not as much as S&M, mid heavy cleans (in a good way). Amp that likes to sustain and compress. Easy amp to play... All knobs at noon and you have a sound to work with.

Overtone S&M Special Skyliner nonHRM
Overall brighter amp compared to standard OTS... clean tone is more or less the same (just a tad brighter), on the other hand OD is brighter, more aggressive sounding. Like OTS this amp likes to sustains. In my experience this amp is not designed to switch from clean to OD on the fly. You have to set the clean and stick with it... than go to OD, set the tone again and play that for a while.

Overtone Skyliner HRM
Overtone Skyliner HRM 100
Clean tone is practically the same as OTS or S&M. With additional tonestack at the OD stage this amp offers more flexibility, along with other switchable options (like deep or pull bright on the OD), this amp offers the most tone selections compared to other amps Ceriatone offers. Overall this amp has less OD on tap compared to nonHRM amps, it will not sustain as much as nonHRM and it somehow makes you work for the tone. That's my feeling about this amp.

Overtone HRM Bluesmaster
Overtone HRM Bluesmaster 100
This amp is completely different. It has different cleans compared to amps above... cleans are more mid scooped, more fendery if you wish but with a lot of low end. This amp possesses a punch like no other amp. Again not as much OD as nonHRM, this amp makes you work for the tone too (very dynamic).

I played all of them... well all of 50W versions. I didn't play the 100W amps, which should give you even bigger tone.
Each amp is special and you can't really go wrong, if you're into D tone. I have met people buying these amps and later on discovered this amp is not really what they were after... but that's what it is all about - finding your tone isn't it.
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Re: BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Post by pompeiisneaks »

10thTx wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:24 am
I am attaching information on the various OTS models for you to understand how each model varies
FYI, my computer gave me a pop up stating this download contained a virus.

with respect, 10thtx
I ran it through a virus scanner online virustotal.com through 58 virus engines and none found any, sounds likely a false positive.

~Phil
tUber Nerd!
j0k3335
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Re: BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Post by j0k3335 »

Sorry for this late answer but I must mention some info :

. First , I'm getting old ... and sick ( not so old -64 years-, BUT it's old when you're sick :( ) : so, some days, with my illness I can't do a lot of things ... and this amp is not a priority in this case !
( like everybody I've to take care of the home, the meals, ... ... and when you're sick, its already a lot of pains )

SO don't be shocked if I write or answer posts from time to time : It's not at all a lack of respect and consideration for your help!

. Second, I had some accidents at the level of the eyes and, consequently, of the operations.
The last date of ... one months ago ... and the result is a disaster at the level of my mink close! ... if I had known a few points this can generate me now in these works in amps ... I am not sure that I will be launched in this operation of head Ceriatone ...

. and thirdly I am a "amateur" in tube amps ... and even more when it comes to Dumble ... and I realize that I have 118 pages of delay and a pack of years on you !
So, I'm upgrading myself, I study all this (plus the difficulty of the language! example: for a French guy, how to imagine at first what LNFB means! :shock: )

BUT I will also have to equip myself accordingly (my measuring instruments really are not at the level of such a spot!).
Also I will need a good multimeter (advice is welcome, in an average price range), some other measuring devices: there, again I will wait your advice (decade box, frequency generators, ... ???)

and also components more in connection with the "Dumble" style: resistances, capacities, ... (again, if you could advise me the minimum kit you must have!).

So much for the introduction!

Now, where I am with this head!

After opening it, I have discovered A LOT of troubles, and finally solve them (?!) And NOW the sounds are acceptable, pleasant in some cases!

The troubles:

. I measure the bias and one tube read 28 mv (ma so) and the other 48 mv! So I put a PAIRED set of old STR415 (that I had in spare for my ... mesa Mark 2b !!!
back in the 80 '!) and set the bias to 38 mv (correct?).

I select too some better 12ax7 NOS tubes and sounds improve !

Then I realized that ALL the trimmers were scratchy !!!
I marked the trimmer of PI because I do not want to go now throughout the procedure and when I moved it: cut and return sound!

Same thing for HRM trimmers, after several manipulations, the tracks seem cleaned (but I would change them one of these days!)

And there, with these new tubes and these different "settings", the sounds become acceptable!
Both on the Jazz and Rock position, the clean sounds are very good. On the other hand the bass controls (and also a little medium) are rather ineffective?

ODs with and without HRM are pleasant but perfectible.

So what remains to be done on this head for now:

. the POWER OUTPUT seems low for a 50W ??? I can play at home with preamp volume at 6 and master at 7 !!! It didn't seem more powerful than my 20W Fuchs !!!
( I must admit that, until now, I didn't take any voltages measure : as soon as done, I will provide them to you )

. The Deep switch is wired upside down (not important) but I don't like the action = sounds muffled?

. the midboost is far too violent: I want a different setting (I even saw a three positions schematic here :wink: )

. The PAB is way too much "violent" and I wish to tame it .

. the OD with HRM is perfectible: it will be necessary, I think, that I check the settings for the HRM trimmers that you give.

. The OD with the HRM bypassed is more aggressive than smooth as on some Dumble (smooth and with a lot of sustain) BUT probably that it is logical with the Bluesmaster and its particular preamp and it will be hard to change !

... and then when I am well trained, well equipped, I will have stored all your advice: IS The Bluesmaster the ideal base for the Larry Carlton (the ripper?) Style amp! :mrgreen:
... I'm talking ... in SEVERAL months !!! :mrgreen:

NOTA: I give, in the pictures, the mods done in this head : DON'T hesitate to comment !!!


[ SORRY for this VERY long post ... ]

EDIT : of course, every componants change, basic mods, ..., ... which can improve immediatly this Ceriatone are obviously welcome :)
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j0k3335
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Re: BEGINNER NEEDS ADVICES !

Post by j0k3335 »

j0k3335 wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:44 pm

I got no answers or advices .

I know that I have to do MY OWN WORK and learn ( for example in this 118 pages forum !, etc. ... ) , do so some searches, ... ...

But, at least, to accelerate a little bit the procedure , May you help/answer me in these points ?

Some of you have probably work on these subjects on a Bluesmater HRM ... and every of you have ... begin to learn a day and probably have ask for some help, some advices, no ?! :wink:

SO , Thanks :)

--------------------------------------------------------------- Extract from my very long previous post ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...

Also I will need a good multimeter (advice is welcome, in an average price range), some other measuring devices ? : there, again I will wait your advice (decade box, frequency generators, ... ???)

and also components more in connection with the "Dumble" style: resistances, capacities, ... (again, if you could advise me the minimum kit you must have!).

...

So what remains to be done on this head for now:

. the POWER OUTPUT seems low for a 50W ??? I can play at home with preamp volume at 6 and master at 7 !!! It didn't seem more powerful than my 20W Fuchs !!!
( I must admit that, until now, I didn't take any voltages measure : as soon as done, I will provide them to you )

...
. and set the bias to 38 mv : correct?

What Can I expect as voltage around the power tubes and PI and what could be wrong ?

. The Deep switch is wired upside down (not important) but I don't like the action = sounds muffled? : any mods around this deep switch in the BluesMaster ?

. the midboost is far too violent: I want a different setting (I even saw a three positions schematic here :wink: )
Do I have to "trick" around the 390pf cap in the mid switch or ???

. The PAB is way too much "violent" and I wish to tame it . : Where is the PAB resistor (I am lost without a schematic :evil:) ? is where to make mods or ???.

The OD with the HRM bypassed is more aggressive than smooth as on some Dumble (smooth and with a lot of sustain) BUT probably that it is logical with the Bluesmaster and its particular preamp and it will be hard to change !
some rubbers to smooth it or some filter somewhere ???

EDIT : of course, every componants change (these Holygrail for examples ? , basic mods, ..., ... which can improve immediatly this Ceriatone are obviously welcome :)
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