Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

[stelligan]

[talbany]

Gil
I think you just handed us our slogan!
The Resistor Mafia

Once a member, always a member - there are no provisions for getting out.

Your money is on the way

Don

are you sure you shouldn't take on the borg mantra?

The Resistor Mafia - Resistance is futile.

Phil
Good one!

" Never hate NOS it affects your judgement"

Tony

[norburybrook]

As I already noted earlier, differences are heard, subtle/small though. As others found too, each is fine in it's own way. No particular preference. Looking now for some thoughts on the physics. What properties of old and new might plausibly be the cause?

Best .. Ian

Ian,

I think what could be useful from this is a sort of resistor 'tone' type list.

So you could give resistors a 'tone' type for builders.

However...and there's always a however, it would be hard to generalise perhaps as plate resistors might sound different form other signal resistors.

I know that the spectral examinations I've done aren't consistent in that Erwins new vs old Dales audio files don't give consistent tonal differences. For example the 1k 3db peak over the new is only present at one particular point in the track so it makes categorising resistors by 'tone' difficult.


M

p.s also my thoughts are similar to NOS valves: they're coming to an end(NOS) so for me it's better to look to the future as we're going to keep build amps and need to know what works with current available parts. Robben ford and Larry Carlton both use new JJ valves in their amps for this reason.
perhaps Andy Fuchs could comment on this as he's a guy making new amps and forging ahead.

Marcus
"Standards"
IMO. Both larry and Robben work with a completely different set of standards on tubes than we mortals. depending on their workloads travel schedule reliability or added cost etc!.If my amps got bounced around as much as theirs do I too would use whatever is cheap, available reliable and sounded decent and wouldn't load in a set of Blackplates before FedEx showed up.
I think it goes without saying that if your manufacturing guitar amps (with a warranty)for the general public then (again) your standards are completely different than us pirates. Cost,reliability, safety, ROHAS availability I can go on . I will however say this.Having been in that world and talked with or met with many of these builders I know that most guitar amp manufactures do keep some stock of both on hand for certain customers or for certain builds which require the sound of an NOS part. We used to talk about and sometimes trade NOS stuff all the time.

Tony

Yes I hear you good points the whole ROHAS thing is something I'd forgotten about as it just doesn't concern us 'Pirates'.

I'm happy to be a member of the pirates club. I'm still on the fence about the resistor Mafia having an Italian Ex wife ;D

all good, lets not forget it's just an amp at the end of the day. I've just been diagnosed with a heart condition caused by all the Cycle racing I've done, so as i sit here waiting to see consultants it puts it all into perspective

viva la resistance


M

[10thTx]

I've just been diagnosed with a heart condition

Sad to hear this. Hope it will be easily treatable and manageable in your life and not restrict you from things you truly enjoy doing.

With respect, 10thtx

[FUCHSAUDIO]

As I already noted earlier, differences are heard, subtle/small though. As others found too, each is fine in it's own way. No particular preference. Looking now for some thoughts on the physics. What properties of old and new might plausibly be the cause?

Best .. Ian

Ian,

I think what could be useful from this is a sort of resistor 'tone' type list.

So you could give resistors a 'tone' type for builders.

However...and there's always a however, it would be hard to generalise perhaps as plate resistors might sound different form other signal resistors.

I know that the spectral examinations I've done aren't consistent in that Erwins new vs old Dales audio files don't give consistent tonal differences. For example the 1k 3db peak over the new is only present at one particular point in the track so it makes categorising resistors by 'tone' difficult.


M

p.s also my thoughts are similar to NOS valves: they're coming to an end(NOS) so for me it's better to look to the future as we're going to keep build amps and need to know what works with current available parts. Robben ford and Larry Carlton both use new JJ valves in their amps for this reason.
perhaps Andy Fuchs could comment on this as he's a guy making new amps and forging ahead.

Thanks for asking. Not here as much as in the past, thankfully just too busy. I don't disagree that NOS parts do have the potential for performance improvements. Whether everyone hears or feels them, they are certainly there. As I mentioned a few times, some of my earliest ODS amps used Holco "blacks" which were a UK made audiophile grade resistor that was quiet and sounded fantastic. Sadly, they are no longer made and were not RoHs. [There is a line of US made precision resistors that sound quite good, as well as a Japanese line I liked too. The realities are that price or minimum buy amounts made using them in production a challenge.] I also used Wima in the past (and I still use today in some circuit locations), Wonder-Caps, Nichicon Black Gate cathode caps, and the sum of these parts was pretty amazing. NOS tubes or even OOS tubes (old, old stock) in various locations can be quite beneficial. Even today, GE or RCA 12AX7's in loops' PI and such, are noticeable. Changing a single part likely won't get you a noticeable or detectable change, but the sum of a whole bunch of parts can and often does.

That being said:
As a manufacturer who exports, I'm somewhat limited to the modern RoHs and CE approved parts out there. I'm liking the current JJ 12AX7's. They are pretty consistent (we use hundreds a month in manufacturing and repair), they sound good and are pretty low noise. We also like the current Chinese 12AX7 that TAD and Ruby sell, although they tend to be slightly noisier and microphonic (even using selected tubes), so I prefer not using them in V1. They do curve trace very close to a real American old 12AX7 spec. The JJ's not so much oddly enough....

As far as passives, it's a mix of Wima, Orange drop, Panasonic/Cornell/IC coupling caps to get the sound we want. I've had a few real Dumbles here for service as well as Carol-Ann and Van Weelden's and Two-Rocks. Honestly, the differences in really old amps vs new is partially the parts, but (in my opinion) the fact they have been PLAYED and broken-in.

My own 100-W ODS is over 15 years old and you can hear and feel the differences to an amp built this week. Not really much difference in measurements, but more in feel and response. That amp is built with modern parts throughout. It's been loaned to various artists, toured, played on gigs by me, and it feels it !

[norburybrook]

Andy,

thanks fro chiming in

funny there's a guy who's retiring here in the UK who has a load of NOS Holco's for sale here in the UK. I did think about buying them but it's 100 at a time and I'll never use them


Interesting about the burn in period of a good number of years changing things , obviously that's something anyone who's made an amp will have to wait for


I've always found JJ tubes reliable and sound great, I've used the chines NOS Ruby valves too and they sound good also. I'm partial to the sovtek for the P.I. in ODS amps, this is also a new valve that sounds good. There's still a good number of Russian ex military valves available here in the UK that sound great too. I've use their EL84 's in my rocket and some 6nC 6L6 type valves that are reasonably available and sound good.


I might pull the trigger on those Holcos after hearing your results



M

[talbany]

I don't disagree that NOS parts do have the potential for performance improvements. Whether everyone hears or feels them, they are certainly there. As I mentioned a few times, some of my earliest ODS amps used Holco "blacks" which were a UK made audiophile grade resistor that was quiet and sounded fantastic.

Welcome to the club

Resistor Mafia

Tony

[jelle]

Hi Tony, I have been trying to reach you via text.

[Colossal]

Gentlemen,

First a big thanks to Tony, Gil, and Jelle for all of the great information and hardcore Dumble lore over the years. I picked up a set of Draloric resistors from Jelle and just finished a 102 build using one of Taylor's chassis. Although, I have no other D amps to compare it too, I have built other D style amps over the years. I cannot make a comparative comment regarding the resistors, but can say that this is a very good sounding amp, right from the start. All of the switched functions work as they should and add a unique variation on the main theme. I have not had time to do anything more than a basic startup procedure and go through things and take voltages. Preamp plate and cathode voltages are spot on. I am using a Classictone Twin PT, the dual voltage one, running off the 345-0-345 tap. Mercury Showman choke and Classictone Twin OT. Matched quad of JJs. Plate voltage is running 480V, toasty...

My only issue is the OD relay and I think I have a bad contact. Switching from clean to OD and amp goes completely silent; no hiss, no nothin'. I need to sort that. But qualitatively, I am very happy with the amp. It is very musical and not at all bright or harsh. Bright adds a nice bit of gain, Mid Boost sounds great, PAB adds the high n' tight vibe, Jazz mode is very good as well. I need to set the trimmer on the PI and FET board.

Cheers guys.

[Smitty]

What does the community believe the important dates and events are with regard to Dale RN65 resistors? What are the changes that took place to the actual resistor and what were the dates?

At what point after Vishay acquired Dale did they modify the manufacturing of the RN and CMF series?

When did the RNs and CMFs become RoHS compliant?

Where there other changes that occurred before Dale was acquired?

Thanks!

[Mr. dB]

When did the RNs and CMFs become RoHS compliant?

I'd bet good money this is the biggie.

[andresound]

Andy Fuchs wrote

“Honestly, the differences in really old amps vs new is partially the parts, but (in my opinion) the fact they have been PLAYED and broken-in. “

I couldn’t agree more. Maybe that’s why HAD took so long to deliver to his clients... he wanted them partially broken in.

[Smitty]

You may have also provided an explanation for the increased value of used Dumbles.