A new 102

[Roe]

Choices...choices...


IMG_3299.jpg

how does the em12n sound? report back after youv'e tried it please

[Colossal]

An update...

Yesterday, I spoke with the gentlemen that owns the amp as he has had about a month with it now. First, he said he was floored at how good it sounded, so that was both gratifying and greatly relieving. He relayed some interesting observations, which, I thought might be of help to others here who are trying to decide if a 102 is right for them. He got together with a buddy to compare this 102 build to his friend's Ceriatone ODS (OTS?). Two cabinets were used: his is a Port City jumbo ported 2x12 loaded with two, older EVM12Ls wired to 16R. His friend with the OTS has a D-Style upright 2x12 with the rear "racetrack" elliptical cutout and loaded with Celestion G1265s (I don't know what impedance it was wired to). Both amps were played and cabs swapped and differences noted.

First, he said that for his needs, my amp was just better in every way (huge relief). Specifically, he noted that, oddly, "there was almost no difference between Rock and Jazz modes on the OTS", where on my build it is night and day (this is rather odd to me. Did Ceriatone use different values?). This was the case with either speaker cabinet tried. Second, he said the touch sensitivity on his amp was nothing like he had experienced before and went on with a litany of adjectives to describe what he was hearing and feeling under his fingers (again, a relief to me). Third, he said (laughing), "...The tone stack actually works! Each knob does what it says!" He said he hates the (mid scooped) sound of Blackface Fenders but loved the 102 voicing (high plate Skyliner) and how rich and full the amp is. He said he loved how full and wide it sounded, but not "flat or sterile in any way". He actually uses Jazz mode and loves it. "It gets this liquidy Holdsworth-like thing when pushed [with a boost in front of the amp]," he said. The EQ was set with the preamp Vol at 5, Bass at 2-3, Treble and Middle at 5. He uses Dimarzio HBs wound to higher DCR (I use lightly potted or unpotted, low DCR alnico III PAF types). He runs the master fairly low at home but he and his friend opened it up to about 6 and said it was a blast to play for a short period, but incredibly loud...too loud to do it for long. He said that the bass never got flabby, but it just kept getting louder. This was my observation as well. He said it reminded him of a Bassman, not a Twin when it was cooking. He said he had tried the Overdrive but had not spent much time with it. He remarked that it would bark when he dug in and the mids had a shimmering, "forward" quality. For the time being, however, he prefers hitting the front end with a boost when he wants a little more. He also said he much preferred the sound of the EV loaded cab to the G1265s. The ported cab is really tight and clear. He said that the 1265s just didn't do it for him, although were nice, but they started to break up where the EVs didn't budge. He also offered that he "hates 4x12s and how congested and blurred they sound." I agree, personally, as I am always looking for clarity and separation these days.

On the technical side, I used the high voltage tap on that dual secondary Classictone PT. My mains run hot, but his are around 117V, so that dropped everything right to where it should be. The OD entrance trimmer was set to about 12k, IIRC. I also used slightly lower pot values from their nominally stated values so as to dump a little gain here and there. No bright cap on the Master. I used a set of Draloric resistors and ceramic caps from Jelle in the signal path and elsewhere. The amp was quite smooth and balanced to my ear. Bright mode adds a substantial gain boost; too much for the gentleman's preference, but he said it was not "bad", just not his thing. If I were playing rock with the fellas, it would be killer, IMO. Those ceramics are smooth as a gravy sandwich, not at all edgy. It's not "silky", it's just smooth...easygoing.

I hope this doesn't come across as self-serving and boastful. I am happy this amp turned out well. I have another set of Dralorics and a set of boards and chassis from Taylor....hmmmm.

[xtian]

Choices...choices...


IMG_3299.jpg

how does the em12n sound? report back after youv'e tried it please

Yes! Sounds very much like it should, and I love the weight relief of the neo magnet. Two thumbs up.

[Guy77]

Choices...choices...


IMG_3299.jpg

how does the em12n sound? report back after youv'e tried it please

Yes! Sounds very much like it should, and I love the weight relief of the neo magnet. Two thumbs up.

I would really like to hear a shootout between a EM12n in a D style build and compare it to the G1265 ( a worked in G1265) . I like the weight of both theses speakers.
I may just have to buy one and see but am not sure about these new style magnets.

Congrats on the 102 build and compliments Dave!
Are the green resistors in your build made by KOA/Kiwame? I see one in the power supply and others on the power tubes.

Cheers

[Colossal]

Congrats on the 102 build and compliments Dave!
Are the green resistors in your build made by KOA/Kiwame? I see one in the power supply and others on the power tubes.

Cheers

Thanks Guy! The 470R screen resistors are 5W Kiwame CF and the single 2k7 5W in the power supply is a Draloric/Vishay (new production).

[Guy77]

Thanks Dave. I ordered some Kiwame resistors for a D style build and am looking forward to how they will work out.

Cheers!
Guy

[norburybrook]

well done Dave Interesting about the jazz/rock switch, some of my various builds have had vary effectiveness of the jazz rock settings depending on model.

It's always nice to get great feedback(sic) from a build



M

[talbany]

well done Dave Interesting about the jazz/rock switch, some of my various builds have had vary effectiveness of the jazz rock settings depending on model.

It's always nice to get great feedback(sic) from a build



M

I used to have the same problem as well. It was only after I started measuring each component values (All the Pot's.Cap,Resistors) and used certain resistor and cap types in the key spots (metal film in some and CF in others) did I finally find the right combination and got some consistency out of those switches There should not be a drastic difference in sound or a big drop in volume going between Rock and Jazz mode. This is how the real Dumbles function! Subtle yet effective and both settings are very useable. This is also true when using a Deep switch. The mid boost is pretty straight forward IMO (even the resistor types on the relay 22m can affect the sound of the PAB!)
Details,Details,Details!
Tony

[Bombacaototal]

I think not all Rock/Jazz were done the same by the master. Here at 5:05 you can hear the massive gain drop on the jazz setting

https://youtu.be/sKunm4Z1IXA

[norburybrook]

well done Dave Interesting about the jazz/rock switch, some of my various builds have had vary effectiveness of the jazz rock settings depending on model.

It's always nice to get great feedback(sic) from a build



M

I used to have the same problem as well. It was only after I started measuring each component values (All the Pot's.Cap,Resistors) and used certain resistor and cap types in the key spots (metal film in some and CF in others) did I finally find the right combination and got some consistency out of those switches There should not be a drastic difference in sound or a big drop in volume going between Rock and Jazz mode. This is how the real Dumbles function! Subtle yet effective and both settings are very useable. This is also true when using a Deep switch. The mid boost is pretty straight forward IMO (even the resistor types on the relay 22m can affect the sound of the PAB!)
Details,Details,Details!
Tony

it's possible the deep or mid switch can affect this? my second gen deep switch makes a massive difference depending on Jazz/Rock. The clip of the combo is what I normally associate with the jazz rock switch, a fair amount of gain loss. my #183 I Built didn't have that amount of volume drop though.

M

[Colossal]

well done Dave Interesting about the jazz/rock switch, some of my various builds have had vary effectiveness of the jazz rock settings depending on model.

It's always nice to get great feedback(sic) from a build



M

Thanks for the kind words, as always, Marcus. Jazz and Rock on this amp did not differ too much in volume, a bit, but not drastically. Jazz was definitely smooth and what I might call more polite, where Rock was was just "more"...a good bit more. I like both modes! I found all switches did something discernibly unique. They weren't just shades of vanilla. Mid Boost does just that, without getting in the way or adding volume. Bright did add a good wallop of gain, no question. I used 390p ceramic which is fairly high, but what is supposed to be closest to the measured value on 102. To do it again (and I probably will), I might go with a three way switch with none-something lower-390p, just to have a bit more range.

Dave

[talbany]

I think not all Rock/Jazz were done the same by the master. Here at 5:05 you can hear the massive gain drop on the jazz setting

https://youtu.be/sKunm4Z1IXA

J/R and Deep are all the same on every amp (Electrically)

Did you measure all your cap,pot and resistor values before you installed them?

If I get a chance I'll do a demo showing how they should work.


Tony

[Bombacaototal]

I think not all Rock/Jazz were done the same by the master. Here at 5:05 you can hear the massive gain drop on the jazz setting

https://youtu.be/sKunm4Z1IXA

J/R and Deep are all the same on every amp (Electrically)

Did you measure all your cap,pot and resistor values before you installed them?

If I get a chance I'll do a demo showing how they should work.


Tony

Hi Tony, I think the only difference is that some amps HAD the relay with the extra 22M and some were just the switch straight, but I agree that the circuit is always the same.

I’d love to see a demo showing how it should be, as I’ve seen real HAD amps (like the one from the video I linked) whereby there was a massive gain drop but have also seen others where it is not that evident like the Dumbleland below
https://youtu.be/zthE05CGFvY

[rootz]

That Dumbleland clip doesn't sound like the rock/jazz mode I have in my amps at all! I get a significant gain drop and lose much of the low end (like my spice sims suggest when I follow any of the schematics on this forum). Might it be that in that particular clip we would be hearing a different kind of circuit? Almost sounds more like he switches of the mid boost when going to jazz. What I hear is that he loses much of the high end and a good deal of mids.

[Guy77]

Hi Dave. I had recently purchased some resistors made by a company called Stackpole and they look a lot like the black resistors you used for the Plates and in the Presence section in your 102 build. Are those also Stackpole resistors?

StackPole.jpg

Cheers

Guy