Non-NOS component choices

[talbany]

Yes, I have built several Dumble replicas, and at least 3 or 4 of those with real parts. Q line resistors, real vintage date code RN65s, Mepco electra blue Metal films. Draloric LCAs, vintage 6PS and 715/716s etc etc etc, solid core wire, tandy coax, and emulating layouts from known classic amps

.

Cool! You got any shots of those amps would love to see them!..(Especially the ones with the Q-Lines )

Tony

[talbany]

I've said this a thousand times and I'll say it again! for those that might have missed it. For myself (and many other builders) who use the original parts that Dumble used is this.
We are trying to get as close as we can to the sound of an original Dumble amp that we have either heard or played!! THAT'S IT!!
We are going for a very specific thing and paying attention to as many of the small nuances as we can. Why because we hear them! They are obvious to us. Especially those who have tried other parts, built many amps and notice these amps do not sound anything like the real ones we have heard or played.
I really want to emphasize this. We are NOT! saying you cannot build a wonderful perfectly useable fine sounding amp that "sings" using new off the shelf parts! YOU CAN!.. So when someone here asks about these NOS parts we automatically assume they are chasing the same sounds we are (why else ask about them). It gets a little frustrating when your trying to explain to others here that this is why you spend the extra time energy and effort to obtain these parts explain why and someone always chimes in and says things like I've built a great sounding amp using new parts. Again We already know you can."Great/Good/Sings is NOT a specific sound or nuance! and certainly not the only quality we want in our amps.

For those out there that need to see some kind of scientific proof or want to know why something sounds the way it does before they go sticking a part in your amp. I (and many other builders) Do Not Care about that! or proof is our ears our hands. We hear and feel the difference and choose that part for those reasons and those only. So why do I bring all this up here? Simple this is a "DUMBLE" Discussion about "DUMBLE"amps! I believe there is a Marshall and Fender forum here and am sure they discuss different parts Fender/Marshall used in there amps over there too

The last thing I will say about this is. If you have an opinion about how a certain NOS part Dumble might have used sounds to you?.GREAT! Bring it.Just make sure you have actually used it in a build. It's a little disingenuous when commenting on a part that you have never used or tell others who have actually used the parts that there must be no difference in sound give some technical reason they know nothing about or the only thing they have to go on is a squashed sound file
if I could find a newer cheaper part that produced the exact same result I would have no problem using it and mention it here! I am sure others would also. NOS is all about chasing a specific sound Dumble created!! NOT just building an amp that sounds great/good/awesome/fine etc etc etc.... That's it.

If Xicon resistors give you the sound you want?. Use Xicon resistors.
Tony

[rootz]

Thanks Erwin for that comparison. I heard a difference, but had no real preference if you know what I mean. Liked the NOS mostly best on the bridge, but the newer ones on the neck, lower gain parts and clean. Feels a bit rounder to me, less raspy. Ymmv.

Tony, I can hear the frustration. Sorry to hear that! I guess part of the learning curve is also that there aren’t really any corners to cut if you want to get really close (or at least close enough) to the sound of the original. Now how does an original really sound and feel? I wouldn’t know, never played one or heard it on stage.

Best thing I can do though is follow the advise I think suits my needs best. At the moment that seems to be your advise. Got the Roederstiens in and now looking for Dralorics, the right pots. I want my low gain leads to be slightly smoother, less raspy, less of the higher harmonics. I think and hope getting rid of much of the Xicons will get me in the right direction.

[talbany]

Thanks Erwin for that comparison. I heard a difference, but had no real preference if you know what I mean. Liked the NOS mostly best on the bridge, but the newer ones on the neck, lower gain parts and clean. Feels a bit rounder to me, less raspy. Ymmv.

Tony, I can hear the frustration. Sorry to hear that! I guess part of the learning curve is also that there aren’t really any corners to cut if you want to get really close (or at least close enough) to the sound of the original. Now how does an original really sound and feel? I wouldn’t know, never played one or heard it on stage.

Best thing I can do though is follow the advise I think suits my needs best. At the moment that seems to be your advise. Got the Roederstiens in and now looking for Dralorics, the right pots. I want my low gain leads to be slightly smoother, less raspy, less of the higher harmonics. I think and hope getting rid of much of the Xicons will get me in the right direction.

I gottcha! understand that my last post was not directed at you!.More so directed at the use of NOS parts and why some of us choose to use them. Enough of that
It's rather difficult to understand the sound you have in your head and certainly don't want to recommend a NOS part that you will not like. My advice is decide on a particular ser# Dumble amp that you want to replicate and I'll help to point out some of the parts Dumble used to achieve that sound from that amp. Dumble used different parts to generate the sound he was going for in that ser # amp.
Let us know how the MK3's do for you..

Tony

[Charlie Wilson]

My original comment is that the newer boutique manufacturers can and are building D style amps that sound as good as the vintage ones. And you don't even have to take my opinion on that - Look at all the Dumble players people here put on a pedestal playing non dumble amps now - Santana, LC, etc etc. I will never be on their level as a musician but if the non OG, modern interpretation is good enough for the gods then I suppose I shall demean myself to something less than the original.

Sorry have to disagree with this. The logic here is that if Larry Carlton or Santana are using a replica Dumble then it must be as good as the real deal.
Don't know about Santana but Larry had a better sound when he was using the real Dumble. Also, there is a good chance that Larry's Bludotone Ripper has some old parts in it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mffJZ2WR42o
CW

[talbany]

My original comment is that the newer boutique manufacturers can and are building D style amps that sound as good as the vintage ones. And you don't even have to take my opinion on that - Look at all the Dumble players people here put on a pedestal playing non dumble amps now - Santana, LC, etc etc. I will never be on their level as a musician but if the non OG, modern interpretation is good enough for the gods then I suppose I shall demean myself to something less than the original.

Sorry have to disagree with this. The logic here is that if Larry Carlton or Santana are using a replica Dumble then it must be as good as the real deal.
Don't know about Santana but Larry had a better sound when he was using the real Dumble. Also, there is a good chance that Larry's Bludotone Ripper has some old parts in it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mffJZ2WR42o
CW

CW
Your right here is a shot I have of one of Brandons (Bludo) amps a friend of mine has, clearly a Q-line for a slope and some kind of old Mustard cap .1 for the Bass cap he put in it.
He also built one for Scott Lerner's Ojai with seasoned (Twin output) transformers and I am sure a few Q-lines made it's way in that amp as well.. I'll bet my left one he has plenty of NOS in Larry's too

DSC02268.JPG

BTW. He also uses a pressed Nichicon poly as a mid cap. Clearly to scoop the mids

DSC02269.JPG

Tony

[martin manning]

Wouldn't the community here be better served if this thread would stay on topic, i.e. "what are some good current production options if if you are NOT going to chase down NOS parts?"

[rootz]

Maybe Martin, but then again, that means comparing. Tony uses NOS, like others do. Good recipe to get close and no need to try new stuff then. So, who will step forward and has the experience to say what new resistor compares to a LCA0414 for example. If there is anything that comes close to begin with.

I think bludo’s or TR’s with NOs parts learns us two things, possibly:
1) the builders know and hear the differences and know when to use NOS or;
2) wealthy customers listen with their eyes.

As I could clearly hear the difference between NOS and new RN65, so for the time being count myself to group 1.

[martin manning]

You are referring to Erwin's test? Didn't you say that you heard a difference but had no preference?

[rootz]

Yes Martin, true. I found the NOD dales a bit raspy on cleans and neck when overdriven. No idea what causes that though. On the other hand I preferred the NOS slightly on the bridge pu when overdriven. Just had more of that Dumble sound that’s in my head and I think it would cut better.

So not really no preference, but one with a bit of nuance.

And yes, that was Erwin’s test. Great test if you ask me.

[beasleybodyshop]

Anecdotally my opinion:

Had pretty good luck with .5w Xicon metal films. Used them everywhere but plates and cathodes.

I've had good consistent results with using the CMF series (Dale RN series for commercial applications I think? Mesa Boogie uses these) in lieu of RN65, vintage or otherwise. Could not detect much if any difference in OD mode.

FWIW I've built a Komet 60 clone with those TKDs and it sounded great. Not sure how much of a factor the resistors were though...but i pretty much build the entire thing with hifi parts from Parts Connexion for laughs.

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[10thTx]

FWIW I've built a Komet 60 clone with those TKDs and it sounded great

Thanks for sharing that! I've got in all 3 of my amps and they're staying! I love 'em.

With respect, 10thtx

[pamaz67]

Furthermore, I tend to use in some cases ( mostly where I desire to have a dry bass and a chimey high with very fine detail, wirings made in pure silver cable.

From https://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/technical-q-a
Q: Is there any advantage to using solder with a 2% silver content?
A: Yes. Silver solder keeps werewolves away from your amp.

I guess silver wire is even more efficient.
Sorry, I couldn't resist

I would say , that for the same reason, it sounds weird to use a certain brand of resistors or capacitors , instead another one. All in all, they are all the same! If to you it sounds strange that a wire material could make a difference, try it, and after that come back and tell us your experience. And just for taking the full picture, I have been not able in all my life to hear any difference in using a normal Solder wire or a silver based one. The only difference I found is just the smell when you solder....

[markusw]

Furthermore, I tend to use in some cases ( mostly where I desire to have a dry bass and a chimey high with very fine detail, wirings made in pure silver cable.

From https://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/technical-q-a
Q: Is there any advantage to using solder with a 2% silver content?
A: Yes. Silver solder keeps werewolves away from your amp.

I guess silver wire is even more efficient.
Sorry, I couldn't resist

I would say , that for the same reason, it sounds weird to use a certain brand of resistors or capacitors , instead another one. All in all, they are all the same! If to you it sounds strange that a wire material could make a difference, try it, and after that come back and tell us your experience. And just for taking the full picture, I have been not able in all my life to hear any difference in using a normal Solder wire or a silver based one. The only difference I found is just the smell when you solder....

Just I because I can't imagine any difference in sound for scientific reasons it doesn't mean that there can't be a difference.
Sorry, I didn't want to offend you!

[Bear]

Any thoughts on getting the EJ “cheap parts” sound with either NOS or new parts? Not really kidding.