Help me mod my 102 - it's too bright!

[PicknStrum]

Hmm.. It's a little hard for me to quantify "sing" and I don't have a frequency analyzer of any sort. What I got out of the removal of it was you could compensate for the loss of high end by turning up the treble/mid pots (if you wanted).

BUT, I'm going to go with the consensus here and throw the cap back in there. I don't want to get too far away from its 102-ness. And, like I mentioned earlier, it didn't take a ton of extra treble away by removing it, just enough to be noticeable.

I'll stick with your recommendations, Tony, and go from there. Just to reiterate, I'm going to put that 500pf cap back in.

EDIT: So I just threw that 500pF back in there, and I have to say, with fresh ears this morning, I think the amp really does sound better. Either goes to show that I'm easily swayed by public opinion and/or my ears lied to me yesterday. Either way, I really like the amp as it sits.

Think I will still try Tony's and Jelle's recommendations and then sit on it for a while. I'll update as soon as I have one.

[ijedouglas]

What I hear with the "sing" is the note blooms into a higher harmonic and on the upper registers it sounds almost like a high pitch singing note riding on top of the played note. This occurs on the clean channel as well as OD.

As Tony stated, 102 is a bright amp. I hated my first attempt at it and thought it sounded horrible next to the 124 and 183. After clipping the master bright cap, the amp is still bright but not in a harsh way, which I think is key.

Can you post pictures after your latest tweaks?

[philbard]

I still have only a minimum of experience with these amps so can't offer any deep wisdom here, but I have discovered a few things on the way to trying to tame the 102. The EV12L seems to be be a very neutral speaker, so if your amp was brighter afterwards it could likely be that the previous speaker was darkening the tone somewhat, maybe try a Celestion? They are known for a warmer sound. I have a G12 70 in a Custom Deluxe that I plugged the 102 into and it got quite a bit warmer. I ordered a G12 65 Cream and it just arrived yesterday and I installed it. Seems rough as it's not broken in, but the high end is lovely and there is a little more bottom than with the EV. Time will tell on that...

I did build a little HRM board last week and alligator clipped it in to tap signal out just before the V2B coupling cap (disconnected that on the back side) and then bring it back in before the resistor in front of the Ratio pot, picture attached. It did indeed offer tone control over the OD channel, but I'm still on the fence about adding it permanently as some other mods I made have improved on the OD sound (OD Ratio pot to 250K as per Tony's suggestion).

I pulled the trigger on some NOS RCA Black Plate 12AX7's, lotsa bucks, but in V1 it made a very nice difference. The amp is less bright and a bit more dimensional. Be prepared for prices over $100 though, yikes.

I also put the LNFB loop on a switch, and am enjoying the ability to take it offline at will. That makes a fair bit of difference. You could easily de-solder one end of it to try.

Overall I'm growing more fond of my build as time goes by, hopefully you will too!

Cheers,

HRM Mod.jpg

[philbard]

Also, what guitar(s) are you playing through the 102?

[PicknStrum]

For guitars, I'm playing strat, tele, and SG in typical pickup configurations - Strat = 3 singles; tele = 2 singles; SG = 2 humbuckers.

Yeah, the Texas Heat was definitely a darker speaker. With the master bright cap gone and the EVM in there, I feel like I'm at a similar brightness to when the Texas Heat was in, but the amp is more jangly and the OD sounds better (both of which I like). I'm definitely keeping the EVM in there. I also love how the EVM sounds with my Princeton.

Thanks for your other recommendations. I'll probably stick with the JJ preamp tubes for now as I'd like to try these other inexpensive mods first. Also, I'm not a huge fan of feedback switches. I have one in a 5E3 and I just never use it.

Interesting to hear your thoughts on the HRM stack. What do you like / dislike about it?

Ian,

I'll have keep listening and try to get an ear for those singing harmonics. Definitely need to develop my ears for a lot of things amp-voicing related.

Your statement regarding the 124 and 183 vs. the 102 has me wondering if perhaps I'd prefer to mod this over to one of them. It's definitely something I'll be thinking about as I'm still going to work through some of the mods Tony suggested first.

Oh, and I'll try to get updated pictures up shortly. So far, all I've really done is clipped the master cap and desoldered then resoldered the 500pF cap. Although it's in there, the leads are shorter than I'd like, so I'll eventually probably throw a whole new 500pf in there.

Thanks for everyone's input.

[philbard]

Thanks for your other recommendations. I'll probably stick with the JJ preamp tubes for now as I'd like to try these other inexpensive mods first. Also, I'm not a huge fan of feedback switches. I have one in a 5E3 and I just never use it.

Interesting to hear your thoughts on the HRM stack. What do you like / dislike about it?

The comment on the LNFB was more of a suggestion that you take it offline, then if you like it that way you could remove it. As I mentioned it does make a difference on the brightness. I think Tony mentioned leaving it out on one of his recent builds. I personally like it for the cleans, and prefer it off for the OD channel but of course switching on the fly isn't particularly convenient.

The HRM stack did work, and I fiddled with it for a hour or so thinking it might be nice to include permanently. It will trim down the highs and you might find it does what you want, can't say. I'm currently deciding whether or not I want to stay faithful to the 102 and if not then will probably install it. Its an easy mod once you get the handful of parts, only took me a short time to drill the board and solder in the components.

[philbard]

For guitars, I'm playing strat, tele, and SG in typical pickup configurations - Strat = 3 singles; tele = 2 singles; SG = 2 humbuckers.

I'm sure your single coils sound pretty bright. I'm primarily a humbucker guy and that helps with my 102, when I play single coil guitars through it the amp doesn't feel like the right match for them.

Cheers,

[talbany]

EDIT: So I just threw that 500pF back in there, and I have to say, with fresh ears this morning, I think the amp really does sound better. Either goes to show that I'm easily swayed by public opinion and/or my ears lied to me yesterday. Either way, I really like the amp as it sits.

I had a similar reaction after I built my 2nd generation amp. The amp was bright, the mids were heavy and in your face and was a bit stiff and really punchy. ( 12AT7 in PI) The Bass Control didn't work as I expected and I had very little control over the volume of the overdrive side. My initial reaction was to start modding the thing. Then a friend of mine who actually has a real 2nd Generation told me that there was nothing wrong with the amp and everything worked and sounded exactly like his. He recommended I hold off on the mods and to give it some time,which I did.The more I played the amp the more I liked it! especially in a live setting were I can crank the thing Cuts through the mix and the harmonic content this thing has makes me laugh. To this day I have not touched it.
In the end I am glad I gave it some time to discover all the cool nuanes the 2nd gen has. It Has it's own voice and does it's own thing like my Bluesmaster/HRM, my 102 and the Music Man.

Unfortunately we are not able to walk into a Guitar Center and play all the various model ODS's to help us decide which one is the ideal tool? We have to build em and see

Tony

[Reeltarded]

Close your eyes and hammer notes with the mid knob straight up. Turn up the bass until you hear it and turn the treble way down and slowly add some back until its almost enough... like Tony said.. expectation makes us all a little freaky if a soldering iron is still a little warm.

[norburybrook]

late to the party on this as I've been away doing..................................... A GIG!!!!!! 1st one in a year.......not a proper gig of course a live stream concert..but hey....it was great to pay with a band again.

Anyway, just wanted to chine in here with #102 comments: I've built 3 and played 2 my friend and forum member philly hudson has built.

I've never found any of these amps bright, so that's 5 amps in total. I also hate bright amps generally. I find #102 to be a well balanced example of the ODS range.

Just my observations I agree the master bright cap is a great place to tune the high end as the #102 shares the master volume.


M

[norburybrook]

Close your eyes and hammer notes with the mid knob straight up. Turn up the bass until you hear it and turn the treble way down and slowly add some back until its almost enough... like Tony said.. expectation makes us all a little freaky if a soldering iron is still a little warm.

^^^^^^^ this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



M

[PicknStrum]

I totally understand what you guys are saying and I think I will probably sit on it for a while. Once I get the ceramic 390pf in there, in addition to the Piher trimmers, I'm going to just play it for a while. I think pulling the master cap made a bigger difference than I initially thought and the more I play it, the more I like it.

I'll get photos posted once I finish these part swaps.

Congrats on the gig Norbury and thanks for everyone's responses!

[Colossal]

FWIW, I don't find 102 to be bright, but very well balanced. One of the best amps I've ever played. That said, I used NOS resistors, ceramic caps, and a Les Paul on the last one.

[talbany]

Guy's
The opinion of 102 being a bright amp was not something I brought up because it's just my opinion or how my amps turned out?. Here is a post by Shad. the person who gave us all the specs on 102. He also reversed engineered and was in 183 as well as I imagine a few other Dumbles, so he has some frame of reference. I am just basically repeating what he said.

Trying not to put my own opinion into the mix.... but do have to say that I think without the loop the Ford amp is by far a very bright amp.

https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 68#p131868

if i had to guess I would imagine most of the brightness comes from the 68 Pf bright master as well as a Silver mica. So this is where I get the opinion that compared to other amps 102 was known to be a little on the "Bright" side..We already know every amp is different and depending on the part types used as well as many other factors.

Don't shoot the messenger
Tony

[norburybrook]

Guy's
The opinion of 102 being a bright amp was not something I brought up because it's just my opinion or how my amps turned out?. Here is a post by Shad. the person who gave us all the specs on 102. He also reversed engineered and was in 183 as well as I imagine a few other Dumbles, so he has some frame of reference. I am just basically repeating what he said.

Trying not to put my own opinion into the mix.... but do have to say that I think without the loop the Ford amp is by far a very bright amp.

https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... hilit=shad


if i had to guess I would imagine most of the brightness comes from the 68 Pf bright master as well as a Silver mica. So this is where I get the opinion that compared to other amps 102 was known to be a little on the "Bright" side..We already know every amp is different and depending on the part types used as well as many other factors.

Don't shoot the messenger
Tony

Perhaps the new resistors and orange drops are not as bright as the originals? As I said I've built 3 and played 2 others from another forum member and they all sound pretty much the same and none of them are bright amps at all.

I've not used any NOS parts in my #102 builds, I've used various transformers and ceramic caps,but as I said all 5 of them sound pretty much the same . I gave Larry Carlton a choice of my amps and he tried all three I have and chose the #102 I don't think Larry likes a bright sound particularly either.

Anyway, do you think there's something myself and Philly hudson are doing wrong with regard to this?, we both use the #102 layout and schematic in the files section and end up with nice well balanced amps IMHO. I'd be curious to know why

M