My TR TS-1 is both too thick and too bright on the OD

[Wallington]

..all, long time lurker, but I think this is probably my first post, so Hi

I picked up a 1st gen TR TS-1 (with the separate FET input) a few weeks ago - there's a great amp in there but I'm struggling to dial it in

My understanding is that this amp is largely based on a 102 circuit (although missing the PI trimmer and no bright cap on the MV)

I can get a great clean tone without any issues with the front panel bright engaged and the treble and presence pretty high, but I've been struggling on the OD side, where it's simultaneously too thick in the lower mids without the bright and harsh on the top end with one

I also need to open up the amp for it to sound good in OD (Ratio needs to be 6-7 and the MV about the same) which is fine and I've picked up a Dumbleator to act as an attenuator to address that

That's obviously caused a further hit on the clarity and unlike most of the folks I read posting here, I didn't need to loose any brightness from the amp in the first place

So with the Dubmleator, it's still a zero sum game on the EQ for me -using the bright switches on the amp or in the loop results in that same harsh top end in OD or mud with them off (this is with good quality 10" patch cables)

Having read everything on this great forum I can find on the subject, I'm about to try:

1) Adding a MV bright cap (various values incoming) - idea being not needing to use bright caps anywhere else and bring the TMB and Presence closer to the settings I see folks running on Youtube, with a view to losing some of the very top end but keeping the clarity?
2) Longer cable length going into the Dubmleator - idea being to use the bright caps but take off the very top end that way instead?
3) Thus suggestion from @bluesfendermanblues - "In order to have less highs in OD, I have a 1n (0.001uf) capacitor with a 150k fixed resistor across the OD master pot.....I guess upping the second snubber to 800pf-1000pf provides the same result."

I have a nagging feeling that options 1 & 2 might in effect be a circular argument - ie adding brightness will add more harshness and taking a away brightness will give me more mid-range mud?

I don't understand what impact 3 would have on the circuit, but I can see logic a making a change that's OD specific

Any suggestions, folks? ..full disclosure I'm out of my depth when getting into the detail of the circuit (but fully willing to learn) ..I've done basic mods on a 5E3 before (changing coupling caps and plate resistors etc) so I can be trusted not to instantly fry myself - but please be gentle!

[ijedouglas]

Hi there and welcome!

Without knowing exactly what is in the circuit I'd start of by saying, 102 is a notoriously bright amp and all the real Dumbles I have played were all on the bright side. Adding a bright cap will push the top end even more.

Couple of things to try before taking an iron to it:

- OD Trimmer - I find that this can muddy up the bottom end - back it off a little and see if that changes anything
- V2 tube - changing this have any effect?
- Speaker and cab - these have an impact on the amp. Are you able to try a different combination to see if that helps?

Schematics and gut-shots always help in diagnosing.

[Wallington]

Hi Ian, thanks for the reply

I’ve not played with the OD trimmer as yet, so worth a shot for sure - the amp is really in dirty cleans territory until OD level is up to about 6 as it stands, which I’m assuming is already on the lean side?

V2 - tried a lot of tubes and currently running a 60s Holland factory Mullard, which is a little brighter / thinner and helps a bit in comparison with say, a Sovtek LPS as a baseline

I’m running through 2 212 open back cabs with Celestion Blues - I tried a Fane A60/WGS ET-90 and swapped back to the Blues, as it was a bit insipid (ET-90 not broken in) and a 412 with a G12 Creamback M/H mix ..the Blues are the best of the bunch and as I’m playing at SLP in the 90-95dB range, the power rating is less of an issue

I have gut shots, but I’d rather not put them in the wild, given it’s someone’s hard earned IP! ..can DM if helpful?

That said, happy enough to share this shot which is already available: http://www.mts.org/audio/wp-content/upl ... -l1600.jpg

Wal

[talbany]

..all, long time lurker, but I think this is probably my first post, so Hi

I picked up a 1st gen TR TS-1 (with the separate FET input) a few weeks ago - there's a great amp in there but I'm struggling to dial it in

My understanding is that this amp is largely based on a 102 circuit (although missing the PI trimmer and no bright cap on the MV)

I can get a great clean tone without any issues with the front panel bright engaged and the treble and presence pretty high, but I've been struggling on the OD side, where it's simultaneously too thick in the lower mids without the bright and harsh on the top end with one

I also need to open up the amp for it to sound good in OD (Ratio needs to be 6-7 and the MV about the same) which is fine and I've picked up a Dumbleator to act as an attenuator to address that

That's obviously caused a further hit on the clarity and unlike most of the folks I read posting here, I didn't need to loose any brightness from the amp in the first place

So with the Dubmleator, it's still a zero sum game on the EQ for me -using the bright switches on the amp or in the loop results in that same harsh top end in OD or mud with them off (this is with good quality 10" patch cables)

Having read everything on this great forum I can find on the subject, I'm about to try:

1) Adding a MV bright cap (various values incoming) - idea being not needing to use bright caps anywhere else and bring the TMB and Presence closer to the settings I see folks running on Youtube, with a view to losing some of the very top end but keeping the clarity?
2) Longer cable length going into the Dubmleator - idea being to use the bright caps but take off the very top end that way instead?
3) Thus suggestion from @bluesfendermanblues - "In order to have less highs in OD, I have a 1n (0.001uf) capacitor with a 150k fixed resistor across the OD master pot.....I guess upping the second snubber to 800pf-1000pf provides the same result."

I have a nagging feeling that options 1 & 2 might in effect be a circular argument - ie adding brightness will add more harshness and taking a away brightness will give me more mid-range mud?

I don't understand what impact 3 would have on the circuit, but I can see logic a making a change that's OD specific

Any suggestions, folks? ..full disclosure I'm out of my depth when getting into the detail of the circuit (but fully willing to learn) ..I've done basic mods on a 5E3 before (changing coupling caps and plate resistors etc) so I can be trusted not to instantly fry myself - but please be gentle!

What mid cap is in that amp? (Brand, style,composition,and any numbers) Also what type of bright caps did they use, (Ceramic, mica? again brand and any numbers)

Tony

[Wallington]

Hi Tony,

Assume cap on the ‘mid’ toggle switch?

I don’t have the amp out of the chassis, but from the pics I have it’s ceramic and creamy-yellow in colour - apols I can’t be more specific just now

I’m not using the mid switch as part of my base tone if that helps ?

Bright cap on the input Vol looks like a silver Mica - mid blue colour

Wal

[talbany]

Hi Tony,

Assume cap on the ‘mid’ toggle switch?

I don’t have the amp out of the chassis, but from the pics I have it’s ceramic and creamy-yellow in colour - apols I can’t be more specific just now

I’m not using the mid switch as part of my base tone if that helps ?

Bright cap on the input Vol looks like a silver Mica - mid blue colour

Wal

Great thanks. Let me know what you find on the Mid cap type when you get a chance?
Tony

[Abe5150]

Are you using single coils or humbuckers? I found the master volume on a TS 1 does not work well for lower volumes when compared to a 102 or 183 clone. Might need to turn it up then knock it down with the dumbleator or some other method. Oh wait you did exactly that my bad didn’t read the whole post.

[Wallington]

No worries @Abe5150 - yep, with the Master at max, there’s plenty of presence on cleans, but running the amp with the master over about 4 running through a Power Station and it starts to overload the PS and get buzzy / phasey, so I don’t know how that’d sound

With the Dumbleator, I’ve got the master at 9 o’clock, but the bottom gets thicker in tandem

[mojotom]

Hi Ian, thanks for the reply

I’ve not played with the OD trimmer as yet, so worth a shot for sure - the amp is really in dirty cleans territory until OD level is up to about 6 as it stands, which I’m assuming is already on the lean side?

V2 - tried a lot of tubes and currently running a 60s Holland factory Mullard, which is a little brighter / thinner and helps a bit in comparison with say, a Sovtek LPS as a baseline

I’m running through 2 212 open back cabs with Celestion Blues - I tried a Fane A60/WGS ET-90 and swapped back to the Blues, as it was a bit insipid (ET-90 not broken in) and a 412 with a G12 Creamback M/H mix ..the Blues are the best of the bunch and as I’m playing at SLP in the 90-95dB range, the power rating is less of an issue

I have gut shots, but I’d rather not put them in the wild, given it’s someone’s hard earned IP! ..can DM if helpful?

That said, happy enough to share this shot which is already available: http://www.mts.org/audio/wp-content/upl ... -l1600.jpg

Wal

Just my 2 cents but using Celestion Blue might be your issue on the OD.
I would try an EV12 or a couple of well broken in G12-65.