New 183 build

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Stephen1966
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New 183 build

Post by Stephen1966 »

So here, as I wrap up one project I am planning my next. A 183.

The 183 high plate is just a delicious sounding amp. The YouTube videos of TAG's along with the Louis Electric Cobra have sold it to me.

Interestingly/curiously, there is also a lot of mod-space with this topology; members here have converted their 183s to Bluesmasters and I like that option. The Bluesmaster is another fine sounding amp. But first things first!

The project here is to build the amp with no exotic unobtanium parts. The market for sustainable supplies of Dralorics, Q-lines and Roe (resistors and caps) is woefully thin. Speaking with a member here, we believe that manufacturers like Nick over at Ceriatone have bought up all the available inventory of typical Dumble stock. Good on him, I suppose, but it means enthusiasts like us have to dig a lot deeper in ebay to find authentic NOS parts and its reached the point where it is hardly worth the effort anymore.

However, granted it is true that a certain aspect of the Dumble tone is rooted in the parts he commonly used, I believe there is more to it, and I want to prove it, by building an amp with only modern day, commercially available parts. The more I study these topologies the more I am convinced that it is the holistic, topological configuration of parts that contributes most significantly to the tone. I would never consider myself a critical listener, and I've never had the pleasure of playing a real Dumble, but I become more and more convinced that we can find the signature Dumble tone in observing things like the phase relationship of components on the board, the geometrical engineering of the chassis, the lead dress, and simply, the use of good quality parts carefully assembled.

There can only be one 183. A dear friend here has built truly faithful reproduction of these amps down to all the period correct parts, and they are simply amazing, but I consider him a master-builder and he is not simply a curator of museum components, he really understands the circuits and with every project he undertakes he proceeds with a deep and profound understanding of the circuits in the big picture. NOS parts are a great point with which to start, it gives us the best chances of achieving a desired set of results, like building an ancient ship with the original hand-tools, but these days NOS parts are a luxury and much depends on the skill of the shipwright in the handling of the tools. It extends deep into the philosophy of building these amps, and MrD's guiding principles. He could take shit parts and make them sound magnificent. It should tell you all you need to know about the importance of all the bits and pieces that go into amps like these. It certainly speaks to me.

I love the anecdote of Henry Ford once receiving a bill of $1000 for a nut. When the engineer was asked what could justify the bill, it is said he replied that it was 1 cent for the nut, but $999.99 for knowing where to put it. It is also said, that when he heard that, Ford paid the bill.

I stand to be proved wrong here, but I believe the 183 is more than a collection of parts!

Stephen


Edit: 24/04/2023

So, for anyone who downloaded the previous schematic, version 1.3, here is the final iteration, version 1.8
DELTA 183 - 1.8.pdf
This is now tested and fully up and running.

I drew up the plans for head and posted them here: https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=36152

And here are a couple of shots showing the finished article.
1682332599345.jpg
1682332599360.jpg
1676837333009.jpg
Enjoy :D
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Last edited by Stephen1966 on Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
Stephen
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bepone
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Re: New 183 build

Post by bepone »

i can agree in some points and disagree in other.. but if you have great output transformer, you can use cheapest (Eric Johnson) parts without problem 8)
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Re: New 183 build

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Re: New 183 build

Post by Stephen1966 »

bepone wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:38 pm i can agree in some points and disagree in other.. but if you have great output transformer, you can use cheapest (Eric Johnson) parts without problem 8)
Hi bepone, please, feel free to elaborate, I'm interested in what you think.

As far as transformers go, I'm going for the untested but readily available Tube-Town transformers: the "Dumble Style" 100 watt power transformer and their 100W for Marshall/JCM800/Plexi output transformer with a Hammond 194B choke. I used the choke in the Skyliner and I haven't had any issues with it. I don't know who winds their transformers but I aim to find out. With this PT though, with its 6V/12V tap, I won't need a separate transformer for the relays.
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Re: New 183 build

Post by bepone »

There is million different opts on the market so i tested them maybe 0.003% :D
I did also the most expensive route like buying from Merren is USA and importing in EU, paying 3x the price of 1 (OPT+shipping+tax on all).

But i have a lot of experience on my owns. Often i'm shifting some DIY OPT's from amp to the amp.. OPT which is really "in balance" means not muddy bass (not flabby) and not sharp treble (round), and some thick harmonic middle usually is tranferring this effects to the new amp. With the components you can affect but base of the sound (output filter) is the OPT and the tubes..

Interesting my best transformer is made on some old laminates (not so rusty but worn), with very hi primary inductance! Has some unique specialities, and makes all the amps "magic" if i can use this word. :wink: I have only one, and shifting it around for the test if i have doubt in OPT.

The most difficult part to adress with the components is in the middle of extremes, not bass, not highs, but middle. OPT can affect low and hi end, something is doing also in the middle. Electronic and componets , coupling caps too, can shape bass and treble. But what is with the middle=? We have only tone stack, and looks like mid capacitor and dedicated circuit is critical.

I like soft, singing and "grindy" middle, and it is kinda difficult to get it..Still searching ..
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Re: New 183 build

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bepone wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:37 am ... OPT which is really "in balance" means not muddy bass (not flabby) and not sharp treble (round), and some thick harmonic middle usually is tranferring this effects to the new amp. With the components you can affect but base of the sound (output filter) is the OPT and the tubes..
It's interesting to hear your parameters and agree with your observation that the OT is also a filter. We can adjust the bass response in the filter caps of the power supply and we can maybe, try a couple of tricks with the top end as well in circuit. I agree the mids are in circuit too, but here, I think the lead dress and phase relationships of the coupling caps in particular, play an important role. I consider the slope resistor, one of the most important components in the amp but just try to lay your hands on a MkIII these days! Fortunately, it's easy enough to audition several types over and over and I might start with a Kiwame, but end up with a Xicon!

bepone wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:37 am I like soft, singing and "grindy" middle, and it is kinda difficult to get it..Still searching ..
Me too :)
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Re: New 183 build

Post by ijedouglas »

bepone wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:37 am There is million different opts on the market so i tested them maybe 0.003% :D
I did also the most expensive route like buying from Merren is USA and importing in EU, paying 3x the price of 1 (OPT+shipping+tax on all).
I am interested in your opinion on the Merren?
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Re: New 183 build

Post by WhopperPlate »

Food for thought:

Using a Marshall super lead circuit, starting out with a MERCURY MAGNETICS plexi OPT I struggled for years to get the huge midrange response that I expected and craved from a Marshall circuit. I tried every trick and mod chasing different eras of schematics, swapping tubes and parts like a mad man .

I was never happy . I would inch closer maybe , but always missed the mark . The worse problem was as ridiculously loud as I was I could never hear myself in a mix , especially for leads. Like screaming into a vacuum .

Eventually I acquired a plexi type transformer manufactured by heyboer with traditional materials . Instantly the midrange bloomed forth and it became a new amplifier . Night and day. Suddenly all of my part changes had to be reassessed and dialed in again. I never had a problem hearing myself again …I finally had midrange .

I feel like it would be hard to get the dumble nuance with certain transformers definitely

(Did I mention I am extremely picky with my rig ? Lol there was a time when I would annoy the crap out of my band mates …anyways I play a lot of piano nowadays :mrgreen: )

Much later on the rest of the iron was swapped . That’s a whole other long story with similar implications.

Just my experience and 2 cents .

Cheers
Charlie
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Re: New 183 build

Post by ijedouglas »

WhopperPlate wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:33 pm Using a Marshall super lead circuit, starting out with a MERCURY MAGNETICS plexi OPT I struggled for years to get the huge midrange response that I expected and craved from a Marshall circuit. I tried every trick and mod chasing different eras of schematics, swapping tubes and parts like a mad man .
Much the same for me with the MM iron. I swapped in the Merren and never looked back
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Re: New 183 build

Post by WhopperPlate »

ijedouglas wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:02 pm
WhopperPlate wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:33 pm Using a Marshall super lead circuit, starting out with a MERCURY MAGNETICS plexi OPT I struggled for years to get the huge midrange response that I expected and craved from a Marshall circuit. I tried every trick and mod chasing different eras of schematics, swapping tubes and parts like a mad man .
Much the same for me with the MM iron. I swapped in the Merren and never looked back
Merren came later . Same.
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Re: New 183 build

Post by bepone »

ijedouglas wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:13 pm I am interested in your opinion on the Merren?
several times i took power and opt for JMP and JTM .. great, nothing more to say.. he knows what he is doing.
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Re: New 183 build

Post by WhopperPlate »

bepone wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:59 pm
ijedouglas wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:13 pm I am interested in your opinion on the Merren?
several times i took power and opt for JMP and JTM .. great, nothing more to say.. he knows what he is doing.
Chris definitely knows :!: I am always a broken record over here talking up that guy lol
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Re: New 183 build

Post by ijedouglas »

WhopperPlate wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:02 pm Chris definitely knows :!: I am always a broken record over here talking up that guy lol
Feel the same way. It was a real game-changer for me after installing his iron.
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Re: New 183 build

Post by WhopperPlate »

Lol look at all us groupies salivating over here :roll: :lol: :mrgreen:
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Re: New 183 build

Post by Stephen1966 »

Merren! Mmm, you guys make a compelling argument. I may yet relent.

The design challenge is to make a fixture for the OT that doesn't involve lifting the main board if we want to swap it out. Lifting the main board is otherwise (probably) neccessary because the mounting bolts would sit somewhere under the PI section of the board. And lifting the board means undoing and then redoing any lead dress that is affected. That's the whole board if it is a single with preamp and PI all in one.

Does anyone know the mounting centres of the Merren OT?

In any case, I'm still going to go for the tube-town OT first. Someone's got to do it. But if it means I'm bringing bacon home for dinner when I should be bringing beef I will look at Merren again, I will DO IT :lol:
Stephen
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