Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

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dbharris
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Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

Post by dbharris »

Hello All,

I wanted to test out different plate resistors for v1 and v2 in my recent build (https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=36323) and I thought if I was going to the trouble, then I might as well document it and post the results here for the community. First and foremost, this was an attempt at a reasonably controlled test. It is certainly not a perfect test and not up to snuff for a scientific paper. I am sure there will be mixed opinions on the results, but I am really curious to hear everyone's thoughts. Depending on interest level, I will wait a bit to upload a key of which clips belong to which sets of resistors tested.

Methodology
My amp was recorded with these settings for all of the tests. The OD trigger wiper reads 25.2K to ground with the amp on and in OD mode. When building the amp, I installed 18 gauge solid core wire connected to an alligator clip where each end of a plate resistor would normally go. This allowed for relatively quick swapping of components between recordings. Obviously the circuit constants with this arrangement are not exactly the same as a resistor soldered to the board. Does that actually matter? I have no clue :D
PXL_20230917_204740302.jpg
I am running the amp through my Dumbleator, but without any effects in its loop. This is how I will use the amp, so it is how I wanted to run the tests. Some may have preferred no active loop. With the amp system setup this way it is quite loud. Certainly keep up with a drummer small gig loud. I was wearing earplugs while making the recordings.
PXL_20230917_204800013.jpg
The amp's power cord is connected to my variac, then to my power conditioner. My DMM was connected to the amps IEC jack throughout the tests. I adjusted the variac before each clip was recorded to ensure the AC input to the amp was 121.5vAC and did not drift more than +/- 0.3vAC throughout the clip. I recorded 2 guitar clips, one into Loop 1 (clean) and another Loop 2 (drive) of my TC Electronic Dittox4 looper. Every clean and drive recording are these loops being played back into the Normal Input of the amp with the appropriate channel selected. All gain staging through the Ditto was not touched between clips. The guitar was an epiphone les paul ultra model with a chambered body and two humbuckers, Seymour Duncan SH2-N Jazz Neck pickup and Screamin' Demon Bridge pickup. These are a little hotter than a vintage PAF style pickup. The Clean clips are the bridge position. The Drive clips are the Neck position.
PXL_20230917_204747706.jpg
The amp is running through am 8 ohm EVM-12L open back Dumble style cabinet. The cab was mic'd with an SM58 just off-center. The mic position was not changed between any clips.
PXL_20230917_202120588.jpg
The mic is going to my Universal Audio Volt 476P interface. The only input being used to record is input 4. The gain on this channel was not changed during recording. The interface is not using the built-in discrete compressor or the "vintage" circuitry. My DAW is Reaper. I am using it to simply record each clip, I have adjusted the volume in Reaper of all the Clean tracks and all the Drive tracks the same for each group to obtain a peak of -4.5 to -3.2 for each set of clips respectively. Once rendered, then the .wav files were renamed to numbered clips with a "Clean" and "Drive" designation and uploaded here.
PXL_20230917_210345429.jpg
PXL_20230917_210432758~2.jpg
Resistor Groups
I tested mostly metal film but a few sets of carbon film resistors as well, some NOS, mostly not. Here are the pictures and the info. If anyone can't read my handwriting, let me know and I can type out these details. As you can see every plate resistor position is not the same exact nominal resistance value. But they are pretty close imho.

The resistor groups are labeled with letters A-J. The clips are labeled with numbers 1-10. I randomly assigned clip numbers to the resistor groups, so for instance, Group A is not what is recorded in clip 1, and so on.
PXL_20230917_203039397.jpg
PXL_20230917_201144228.jpg
-Dan
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dbharris
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Re: Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

Post by dbharris »

Let's see if this works, sorry you will have to download the files. But here is a link to a OneDrive folder with the 20 sound files. I politely suggest listening with good quality headphones or speakers.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AifZol0HvTsGoB1hl2Y ... 8?e=YAsBMr

If somebody has a better suggestion, I am all ears :D

-Dan
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erwin_ve
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Re: Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

Post by erwin_ve »

Hi Dan,

nice work! I did this a while back with old vs new RN65D. I could hear a significant "open" high end with the old ones. However that was not detectable in the soundfiles I made back then, and fluctuations in the wall voltage made it scientifically unreliable despite my own observations.
I will listen to your sound files, really curious!

Erwin
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bepone
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Re: Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

Post by bepone »

i started to listen, but first impressions,

-overdrive is muddy, on neck, while will be better to have it in bridge, because IMO difference on resistors is more on middle- high tones, muddy neck doesnt have highs so cannot be valid so much

- overdrive is played with one note only while will be better to see not minimalistic approach, so chords too, with at least 2 strings together where dumble amps are shining

- overdrive also on higher gain to check?

- for cleans neck would be better, so i will do completely opposite tests from that ones provided :P
after job i will listen more carefully
dbharris
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Re: Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

Post by dbharris »

Thanks Erwin!
bepone wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:39 am i started to listen, but first impressions,

-overdrive is muddy, on neck, while will be better to have it in bridge, because IMO difference on resistors is more on middle- high tones, muddy neck doesnt have highs so cannot be valid so much

- overdrive is played with one note only while will be better to see not minimalistic approach, so chords too, with at least 2 strings together where dumble amps are shining

- overdrive also on higher gain to check?

- for cleans neck would be better, so i will do completely opposite tests from that ones provided :P
after job i will listen more carefully
Hi Bepone, I'd be happy to record some more clips with the clean using neck pickup and overdrive using the bridge pickup. I'm not totally sure if you are asking if the overdrive in the clips was set with higher gain (it was not, in my opinion more like medium) or if you are saying you would prefer more gain than what is present in these clips?

Due to personal and work commitments I am not sure when I will be able to record additional clips. Might be a bit especially since too loud to do at night once I'm home from work.

-Dan
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bepone
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Re: Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

Post by bepone »

dbharris wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:31 am
. I'm not totally sure if you are asking if the overdrive in the clips was set with higher gain (it was not, in my opinion more like medium) or if you are saying you would prefer more gain than what is present in these clips?

Due to personal and work commitments I am not sure when I will be able to record additional clips. Might be a bit especially since too loud to do at night once I'm home from work.
thx for the clips,
i was sugesting to record clips with higher level of od, because when i was doing this on mine it was clear difference between, carbon comps vs metal films vs metal oxides in anodes on higher gain in OD structure, amount of heighs, thickness..

i settled for metal film for V2a and MOX for V2b,
the same also for V1 ..
dbharris
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Re: Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

Post by dbharris »

Life has been too busy lately to be able to record additional clips. Combined with the low interest to this thread, the amount of time it takes to record so many clips, and the fact that I could not hear meaningful differences in the first set of recordings, I decided to post the resistor reveal here to close the loop in case it benefits anyone in the future. While I do not doubt that some people are capable of hearing differences among these resistor groups, I don't think I fall into that group. I also recognize that these are only 4 resistors in the whole amp being swapped at a time. Would love to hear anyone's thoughts on the clips or info below.

Clip# - Resistor Set:
1 - Generic Metal Film from Amplified Parts, 1/2W I believe
2 - NOS Roederstein MK2 0.6W
3 - Takman Rex 1W (Carbon Film)
4 - Vishay/Dale RN65D/RN70E
5 - Amtrans AMRT 2W (Carbon Film)
6 - Tepro 1/2W and NOS NTE 1/2W
7 - PRP 1 Watt
8 - NOS IRC RN65D 1W and NOS Roederstein MK3 1/2W
9 - Unknown Metal Film from Jelle, 1/2W I believe
10 - Amtrans AMRG 3/4W (Carbon Film)

Even though I could not hear any meaningful differences, I could "see" some variations if I zoomed into the recorded waveform in my DAW. I am attaching screenshots below. For each of the clean and drive screenshots the first is the attack of a particular note(s) and the second is the decay of that. To me, I see slightly more variance in the decay.

Clean:
Clean Waveform1.JPG
Clean Waveform2.JPG
Drive:
Drive Waveform1.JPG
Drive Waveform2.JPG
Best,

Dan
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mdlockyer
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Re: Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

Post by mdlockyer »

Surprised there isn’t more interest in this thread. Thanks for posting this and documenting it!
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rccolgan
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Re: Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

Post by rccolgan »

I think this is one of the best threads on TAG! Maybe it's seemingly not interesting because it is more scientific and conclusive versus building hype around mojo components by cork sniffing :lol:

@dbharris - keep up the incredible work. Wow..

Would this be a way to see shot noise too?
Ryan
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Guy77
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Re: Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

Post by Guy77 »

Yes I agree, This was a great post. I have been so caught up with life matters that I never had time to chime in until now.

I have tried several similar resistors mentioned for the plates and the changes I noticed most was how the Vishay/Dale RN65D/RN70E on V1a plate made the amp a little brighter than using any of the other resistors in that position.

1 - Generic Metal Film from Amplified Parts, 1/2W I believe
3 - Takman Rex 1W (Carbon Film)
4 - Vishay/Dale RN65D/RN70E
5 - Amtrans AMRT 2W (Carbon Film)
7 - PRP 1 Watt

I have also experimented with the 2 watt Kiwame resistors, not mentioned here, and found they added an interesting character to the overdrive sound when used in V2a/b. I preferred the overdriven sound of the amp when those resistors were used. More than the other types mentioned above. It was like a raw character was added to the sound that was just right. Not to bright and not too smooth.
This was on a Low Plate Overdrive Special 124, my favorite model.

Also as @bepone mentioned its worth experimenting with one flavor of resistors in Va and a different one in Vb. You can get some very interesting sounds that way too!

Yes @dbharris - this is great work!

Cheers
Guy
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ViperDoc
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Re: Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

Post by ViperDoc »

I built a 50W #124 w/o OD and found a massive difference between MF and CF on the V1A/B plates. The MF was almost strident sounding, while the CF sounded creamier. That was a P2P build, also, so it could be easier to hear differences with reduced circuit capacitance.
Just plug it in, man.
dbharris
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Re: Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

Post by dbharris »

Thanks all, I appreciate hearing your experiences too. I will say that in the room my head perked up with both sets of the Amtrans carbon film resistors. Which I honestly was not expecting. I guess I would describe it as creamier sounding. But listening back to recordings I don't get that same feeling compared to the others.

My plan is to build a 2nd Gen next, then a Low Plate Classic (or perhaps transition gen). I will probably do this exercise again for the LPC, but not sure when that will be.

-Dan
alnight
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Re: Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

Post by alnight »

I too have been impressed with the Amtrans AMRG's. Really like the 2w in the dropping string and the 3/4w in the bias and negative feedback circuits. Seems to smooth the whole amp and tame high end unpleasantness. Didn't expect to prefer them for those positions.
WhopperPlate
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Re: Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

Post by WhopperPlate »

rccolgan wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2023 8:58 pm … because it is more scientific and conclusive versus building hype around mojo components by cork sniffing :lol:
I would venture to say this thread is the epitome of cork sniffing resistors …
Charlie
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erwin_ve
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Re: Resistor Shootout: High Plate Skyline

Post by erwin_ve »

WhopperPlate wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 4:18 pm
rccolgan wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2023 8:58 pm … because it is more scientific and conclusive versus building hype around mojo components by cork sniffing :lol:
I would venture to say this thread is the epitome of cork sniffing resistors …
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