SSS 002 revisited and lessons learned

Overdrive Special, Steel String Singer, Dumbleland, Odyssey, Winterland, etc. -
Members Only

Moderators: pompeiisneaks, Colossal

Post Reply
User avatar
ElectronAvalanche
Posts: 374
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:17 pm

SSS 002 revisited and lessons learned

Post by ElectronAvalanche »

Dear Ampgaragists,

I revisited my 002 clone again after almost 10 years. The clone is a modified version of the original hand-drawn schematic having a Dumbleator loop instead of Reverb. I also revised the circuit over the years to reflect most of the errors which became known. Yet the amp always was much too bright for my tastest, almost brutally bright and harsh.

Once I tried my Double SSS preamp (see other thread) into my 002 clone (into the Return stage of the built-in Dumbleator of my 002 to be exact) I was suprised by the difference between the 004/004 circuit and the 002 preamp.

The 002 preamp was much much brighter than either 004 or 005 (which are much closer sounding to each other). Bear in mind that the 002 preamp in my clone of course goes through the Send section of the built-in Dumbleator thus some minor differences can be expected (I need to built a separate Dumbleator again to make this comparison identical as possible :-)). So I wondered why the 002 preamp was so much brigther than e.g. 004 (which has a comparable Filter circuit). After searching the Ampgarage I found an interesting post about the lack of a grid stopper on the tube following the filter in 002 compared to 004 and 005. This post (I need to find it to post a link) also discussed the possibility of blocking distortion due to the lack of a grid stopper in 002. So I installed a 220k grid stopper in my 002 and this improved the harsh brightness nicely. Now the high filter is much more usable.

Another thing I found is that the Filters as in the hand-drawn schematic are quite usable if you are willing to set the tone controls a bit more extremely. For example the mid control is mainly responsible for the harsh high frequency and dialing that back gives the high filters more room. Then there is the "wrong" postition of the 0.0033 cap in the hand-drwan schematic leading to an extreme high cut (as testified by the Dumbleland demo on Youtube) which works quite nicely if you use the Jazz mode and bright switch (120pf in my case). In summary I think with the 220k grid stopper and a new approach to setting the controls depending on the settings of the filter revealed a very useable tweakability of the hand-drawn (of course minus the blatant mistakes) schematic.

Coming back to the 220k grid stopper: I assume that the person drawing the schematic might have simply overlooked that resistor which most likely is under the PCB in the original amp directly on the tube socket. Maybe the person drawing the schematic mostly measured the values in the amp and there is no easy way to measure that if the resistor is below the PCB. Anyhow, all assumptions from my side. I would invite anyone the test a 220k or larger grid stopper one the tube grid after the filters.

BTW: the Pentode preamp into the 002 Power amp (via 002s in-built Dumbleator Return section) was quite nice and a bit more open and airy than the 004/005 SSS preamps.

Much rambling, looking forward to comments.

Best Regards,

Electron
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
erwin_ve
Posts: 1718
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:06 am
Location: Dordrecht, Netherlands
Contact:

Re: SSS 002 revisited and lessons learned

Post by erwin_ve »

Hi Electron,

One other thing that contributes to a less bright 002 amp is the 100k NFB resistor to the 1st preamp triode cathode( I see you have that one in your schematic). It give the amp a more controlled/ dampened high and a more(perceived?) low end.
Also the direct/ reverb mixer cathodes have a bypass cap that is probably mixed up. That japanese schematic was far from a real amp, a indication of the topology, but due to a lot good educated guesses it is a phenomenal amp. My SSS002 turns heads anyway.
Ill try the 220k grid stopper.Curious!

Erwin
User avatar
ElectronAvalanche
Posts: 374
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:17 pm

Re: SSS 002 revisited and lessons learned

Post by ElectronAvalanche »

erwin_ve wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 1:34 pm Hi Electron,

One other thing that contributes to a less bright 002 amp is the 100k NFB resistor to the 1st preamp triode cathode( I see you have that one in your schematic). It give the amp a more controlled/ dampened high and a more(perceived?) low end.
Also the direct/ reverb mixer cathodes have a bypass cap that is probably mixed up. That japanese schematic was far from a real amp, a indication of the topology, but due to a lot good educated guesses it is a phenomenal amp. My SSS002 turns heads anyway.
Ill try the 220k grid stopper.Curious!

Erwin
Hi Erwin,

Indeed the demos of your amp sound extremely nice. The LNFB resistor I changed early on from 1M to 100k which helped quite a bit already.The 5uF cathode cap of the dry channel also helped s lot I think the 1uF in the schematic is clearly wrong. I think that the grid stopper also helps a lot and I look forward to your feedback if you install that.

Kind greetings,
Electron
User avatar
martin manning
Posts: 13207
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:43 am
Location: 39°06' N 84°30' W

Re: SSS 002 revisited and lessons learned

Post by martin manning »

There is a lot of treble coming out of the preamp before V1b, and indeed the mid control pulls the high end down as it adds more mid scoop. I think 10% audio taper would be the best choice for both the treble and middle pots (mid pot CCW to ground, wiper shorted to top). A large grid stopper on V2a will pare down the extreme high end of course, but with 10% audio middle and treble pot tapers it might not be needed, and throttling that stage above 3-4 kHz might actually detract from the overall result. Changing the pot tapers is more about getting more usable sweep on the treble and middle controls. IDK what pots are actually in 002, but that's what I'd do. Even with those changes, I still recommend my revised filter circuit and cap values, as the primary goal there is even steps with balanced bass-treble effects.
User avatar
ElectronAvalanche
Posts: 374
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:17 pm

Re: SSS 002 revisited and lessons learned

Post by ElectronAvalanche »

martin manning wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 3:28 pm There is a lot of treble coming out of the preamp before V1b, and indeed the mid control pulls the high end down as it adds more mid scoop. I think 10% audio taper would be the best choice for both the treble and middle pots (mid pot CCW to ground, wiper shorted to top). A large grid stopper on V2a will pare down the extreme high end of course, but with 10% audio middle and treble pot tapers it might not be needed, and throttling that stage above 3-4 kHz might actually detract from the overall result. Changing the pot tapers is more about getting more usable sweep on the treble and middle controls. IDK what pots are actually in 002, but that's what I'd do. Even with those changes, I still recommend my revised filter circuit and cap values, as the primary goal there is even steps with balanced bass-treble effects.
Hi Martin,

thanks for chiming in! Interessting to note the „wiper shorted to top“ regarding the mid pot. Some schematics (also ODS) show the mid cap connecting to the wiper and the ccw to ground and no connect between the wiper and counter cw lug some show a „variable resistor“ setup of the middle pot (counter cw pot connected to wiper). I have the counter cw lug not connected in the 002 and connected (aka variable resistor
) in the 004/005 and pentode preamp and tried both variants with an alligator clip in the 002 but was not able to hear any discernible difference either in the extreme settings or any other setting. So for me there seems to be no difference between „variable resistor setup“ and the one you describe.

I used alpha pots audio for Treble and Bass and CTS lin for Middle, so from the top of my head I do not know the taper. Maybe the value of the middle pot was also not 100k in 002 but something lower? Oddly enough the 004/005 preamps have the very same audio taper and values but the controls seem to work slightly different, not as extreme as in the 002. Yet both 004/005 are less bright and more „middy/woody“, 002 is overly bright (with the grid stopper it can finally be tamed) and more hifi. Again the overall brightness/hifiness of 002 might be due to the Dumbleator Sendstage (btw no bright cap activated) so I really need (maybe that is just an excuse 😊) to build an external Dumbleator for the Double SSS. Yet the Pentode preamp is comparable in brightness to 002 going into the 002 power amp (same setup as with thw 004/005 Double preamp= into the internal Dumbleator Return of the 002 amp).

I might revert back to the higher voltages in the 004/005 preamp (= getting rid of the FET simulator resistor in the ps) to up the voltages to approx. 200V on V1. Will see if that makes the 004/005 a bit more „hifi“.

Electron
User avatar
martin manning
Posts: 13207
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:43 am
Location: 39°06' N 84°30' W

Re: SSS 002 revisited and lessons learned

Post by martin manning »

ElectronAvalanche wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 4:29 pmInteresting to note the „wiper shorted to top“ regarding the mid pot. ... I have the counter cw lug not connected in the 002 and connected (aka variable resistor) in the 004/005 and pentode preamp and tried both variants with an alligator clip in the 002 but was not able to hear any discernible difference either in the extreme settings or any other setting. So for me there seems to be no difference between „variable resistor setup“ and the one you describe.
As long as you are wired for increasing resistance with CW rotation, which means CCW (lug 1) to ground, shorting the inactive end (lug 3) to the wiper (lug 2) or not makes no difference. It's just good practice since the wiper can't go open.
ElectronAvalanche wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 4:29 pmI used alpha pots audio for Treble and Bass and CTS lin for Middle, so from the top of my head I do not know the taper.
Alpha audio are most likely 10%, CTS could be 10%, or 30% "J" taper.
User avatar
jelle
Posts: 2374
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:55 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: SSS 002 revisited and lessons learned

Post by jelle »

Alpha is 15% taper, jelle
User avatar
martin manning
Posts: 13207
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:43 am
Location: 39°06' N 84°30' W

Re: SSS 002 revisited and lessons learned

Post by martin manning »

Correct! Note to self: always read the spec sheet ;^)
Richard1001
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:12 pm

Re: SSS 002 revisited and lessons learned

Post by Richard1001 »

Hi ElectronAvalance

I think i posted the possibility of blocking distortion back when i and others were trying to figure out the correct schematic and values.

Distortion did occur but only when driving the pre amp hard and with the high switch on the bigger caps (1000pf and up). With a 68k gridstopper the sound deteriorated so I ended up not using a gridstopper as there was no need for it (sound wise).

If you need a 220k gridstopper it is likely fixing a problem somewhere else.

For the tonestack i use lineair pots for treble and mid (250k and 110k) and a 250k 10% pot for bass. The sweep is very good and the amp is sounds nice and balanced with everything on 12 o clock.
User avatar
ElectronAvalanche
Posts: 374
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:17 pm

Re: SSS 002 revisited and lessons learned

Post by ElectronAvalanche »

Richard1001 wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2024 8:14 pm Hi ElectronAvalance

I think i posted the possibility of blocking distortion back when i and others were trying to figure out the correct schematic and values.

Distortion did occur but only when driving the pre amp hard and with the high switch on the bigger caps (1000pf and up). With a 68k gridstopper the sound deteriorated so I ended up not using a gridstopper as there was no need for it (sound wise).

If you need a 220k gridstopper it is likely fixing a problem somewhere else.

For the tonestack i use lineair pots for treble and mid (250k and 110k) and a 250k 10% pot for bass. The sweep is very good and the amp is sounds nice and balanced with everything on 12 o clock.
Hi Richard,

thank you for your reply and the additional information. I scoped the amp and there really is no functional problem (like parasitic oscillatons or some like that) but the amp simply is too bright for my tastes. If we consider a grid stopper a fix for an underlying problem, I wonder why Dumble apparently used 220k grid stoppers in both 004 and 005 after the filters? Can you elaborate a bit more on how anything higher than 68k did deteriorate the signal. I assume this means loosing highs.

Also the brightness problem of course depends on the speakers used and guitar used. Also my amp has an internal Dumbleator which might contribute to brightness. Overall I think the consensus is/was that 002 is a rather bright and sometimes harsh amp.

Anyway I am quite happy with the 220k and do not preceive it as taking away from the amp, but rather making it more usable by getting rid of some of the brightness.

Looking forward to what others think (maybe state the speakers and guitars you are using).

Electron
Richard1001
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:12 pm

Re: SSS 002 revisited and lessons learned

Post by Richard1001 »

You could be right about the build in dumbleator making the amp brighter.

I tried to get as close to the original as possible and to do that, changed some things that did not make sense or did not correspond with the gutshot.

My amp is not bright and sounds like an old Fender with the high filter switch on the first or second setting. More high mid and mid is added when the filter knob is turned up. My amp sounds a lot like the Dumbleland 009 and also the filter setting work and sound the same as in the video of the 009 on YouTube. I did use Transformers with more iron. The output transformer is almost double the size with extended high and low frequency. Only downside is that the amp weighs 53 lbs.

The speakers i use are JBL E120 (2x12) or a Brunetti neo 1512 cab with EVM12l (top) + EVM15l (bottom).
Guitar's: different Fenders, all single coils.

What i noticed with a gridstopper after the filter was a weaker sound, but this could well be less brightness. I remember the 1st setting on the high filter (smallest cap) getting un usable.
Post Reply