forwarded cut-and-paste re D-amp differences...

[Bob Simpson]

Hi guys.
I was sent the following by PM.
It came from another site, but I cannot do the attribution.
I was just interested if these descriptions/history sound about right with the folks here...
For background info, only.

Thanks.

Bob


Non Hrm classiq EQ is the oldest style of dumble amp. A bit more rooted in the
raw fenderish tone. This is the amp that made his reputation. This
would be like early Lindley, Browne, Lowell George, the first
incarnation of his amps.
It can sustain like a mofo! It is a singing OD for sure.
Not much compression, very touch sensitive and dynamic....

Second the Non-HRM Skyliner EQ low plate is a variation of the above. Dumble modded
several of his older amps with a new tone stack he was developing,
know as the skyline eq because it's output viewed on a scope resembled
a city skyline.
It is a little less Fender but still a somewhat lower gain affair. It
has the same gain as the vintage amp but the new EQ is more "signature dumble" and a little less Fender. Improved cleans from th Vintage model.
It still sustains like a mofo, has a bit better string to string definition and is a little more refined in the tone shaping.

Non-HRM Skyliner EQ high plate is where he went next, same as above but now the
gain staging is not classic fender. It has more headroom, definition, and punch, more lively and responsive cleans, smoother OD, and a small bit of compression, very touch sensitive, lots of sweet singing tones.

HRM Skyliner EQ HRM stands for
"Hot Rubber Monkey". This is a second tone stack just for the OD
channel. It is more or less a Marshall style tone stack this allows tone
shaping of the OD independent of the cleans.
A real Dumble of this ilk would be called a Skyline HRM. Smooth as silk, goes from clean to mean like no ones biz. Transition
between is amazing. You can pick clean, a bit dirty, grinding, soaring, all
with your hand and all smoothly with definition. No rasp or buzz. Very refined. Gorgeous smooth tones. A little more compression that the above amps but not in a bad way. Very natural. The dynamic response is second to none. This amps feels like it breathes with you after awhile.
Smooth singing overdrive, completely dynamic, never any rasp or buzz, no IM distortion or other uglies.

Blues Master. Think raw early Fender/Marshall
tone on steroids. The tone stack is decidedly bassman territory,
however because of Dumbles many other difference it is far better IMO.
The cleans here are the best cleans I think I have ever heard, dumble
or otherwise. The cleans will sing and sustain!!! The OD is much less smooth and much less compressed than the above amps. It has some early Marshall vibe to it. Boosted cleans with this amp are to die for. The OD is a bit more raw and edgy then some of the other offerings but with boosted cleans you get the smooth side of things and with the OD you have a less polite and refined tone.
Somewhat like the first Dumbles, though different. Lots of punch, sustain and singing but not as smooth as some of the other offerings. This one can be thick and dense too. Not dark and crappy, just "meaty"...
Open clean cleans to mean and a little rude.
Big fat sick blues machine. Lots of character or soul. This amp will try and steal you girl.Like a tuxedo on a cowboy?.... It can play nice but it can still stomp in the dirt.
last is the same as above with the HRM OD tone stack which gives a little more tone shaping and refining in the OD section.

[erwin_ve]

It was taken from the Quinn website, I don't know if it's any longer available on his website.

[Max]

Hi guys.
I was sent the following by PM.
It came from another site, but I cannot do the attribution.
I was just interested if these descriptions/history sound about right with the folks here...
For background info, only.

Thanks.

Bob


Non Hrm classiq EQ is the oldest style of dumble amp. A bit more rooted in the
raw fenderish tone. This is the amp that made his reputation. This
would be like early Lindley, Browne, Lowell George, the first
incarnation of his amps.
It can sustain like a mofo! It is a singing OD for sure.
Not much compression, very touch sensitive and dynamic....

Second the Non-HRM Skyliner EQ low plate is a variation of the above. Dumble modded
several of his older amps with a new tone stack he was developing,
know as the skyline eq because it's output viewed on a scope resembled
a city skyline.
It is a little less Fender but still a somewhat lower gain affair. It
has the same gain as the vintage amp but the new EQ is more "signature dumble" and a little less Fender. Improved cleans from th Vintage model.
It still sustains like a mofo, has a bit better string to string definition and is a little more refined in the tone shaping.

Non-HRM Skyliner EQ high plate is where he went next, same as above but now the
gain staging is not classic fender. It has more headroom, definition, and punch, more lively and responsive cleans, smoother OD, and a small bit of compression, very touch sensitive, lots of sweet singing tones.

HRM Skyliner EQ HRM stands for
"Hot Rubber Monkey". This is a second tone stack just for the OD
channel. It is more or less a Marshall style tone stack this allows tone
shaping of the OD independent of the cleans.
A real Dumble of this ilk would be called a Skyline HRM. Smooth as silk, goes from clean to mean like no ones biz. Transition
between is amazing. You can pick clean, a bit dirty, grinding, soaring, all
with your hand and all smoothly with definition. No rasp or buzz. Very refined. Gorgeous smooth tones. A little more compression that the above amps but not in a bad way. Very natural. The dynamic response is second to none. This amps feels like it breathes with you after awhile.
Smooth singing overdrive, completely dynamic, never any rasp or buzz, no IM distortion or other uglies.

Blues Master. Think raw early Fender/Marshall
tone on steroids. The tone stack is decidedly bassman territory,
however because of Dumbles many other difference it is far better IMO.
The cleans here are the best cleans I think I have ever heard, dumble
or otherwise. The cleans will sing and sustain!!! The OD is much less smooth and much less compressed than the above amps. It has some early Marshall vibe to it. Boosted cleans with this amp are to die for. The OD is a bit more raw and edgy then some of the other offerings but with boosted cleans you get the smooth side of things and with the OD you have a less polite and refined tone.
Somewhat like the first Dumbles, though different. Lots of punch, sustain and singing but not as smooth as some of the other offerings. This one can be thick and dense too. Not dark and crappy, just "meaty"...
Open clean cleans to mean and a little rude.
Big fat sick blues machine. Lots of character or soul. This amp will try and steal you girl.Like a tuxedo on a cowboy?.... It can play nice but it can still stomp in the dirt.
last is the same as above with the HRM OD tone stack which gives a little more tone shaping and refining in the OD section.

O.K. Here's my personal opinion:

There are at least around 250 OD amps. So even someone like me - who has personal experience with around say 15 different specimens of the ODS and ODR kind of Dumble amps, has personal playing experience with only around 5%!!!
And if someone asks me, if I know something about Dumble amps my answer would always be: Yes I know something about around 30 of his devices (amps, cabinets, dumblelators etc) not more not less.

Nearly all Dumble amps (including all ODS!) have beeen custom built for a specific customer and Dumble himself thinks of everyone as a prototype that could be used for the production of a series of fine guitar amp ("Fuchs" and "Two Rock" proved the truth of this to some extent) and he spends some enormous time to make sure, that every amp meets the need of the specific customer as far as he understands these needs.

That's why 5% - in regard of Dumble amps - IMHO are a very very very poor statistic base for all those kind of statements floating around forae like this and others: Dumbles are like this or like that.

Of course the ODS line changed over the time in regards of the t e c h n i c a l m e a n s Mr. Dumble felt best suited to built an amp that would meet the needs of his customers.
So perhaps it makes some sense to talk about "generations" of tonestacks and other technical details - even if then there maybe in total more "transition" models as "non-transition" models. And of course these "technical generations" may be linked to some extent to different musical conceptions too.

But - believe me or not - in regard of the Dumble amps I know, I very often met greater differences in the tonal voices of two "High Plate Skyliner without HRM" amps as between some of different "generations" with production dates years apart.

What makes everything still more complex is the fact, that very often there are not many links between "design generations, "technical generations" and "sound generations": I you look at the latest build that Alexander has done for Carlos Santana, that has been done after 2000 as far as I know, and is one of his latest amps, this will look for many like an amp from the seventies.

If you listen to recorded Dumble amps, the differences you hear are only to some small extent the differences of the amps but the differences of the playing styles, the venues, the recording and mastering procedures and so on.

People, who make statements like the one Bob reports, perhaps should keep in mind that many members here don't have any personal experience with Dumble amps and are looking for advise by what kind of builds they could perhaps get near to a tone they have in their heads or heard on some records of their heros.

If the Santana fans now begin to clone seventies ODRs they - most likely - would perhaps be not too happy with the outcome.

So all more experienced members here should perhaps be a bit more cautious with all these kinds of "the history and sound of the Skyline ODS" on a statistic base of between 0% and 5%.

Sometimes I read posts of some of the more experienced members that sound a bit like "I know nearly everything in regard of Dumble amps". Yes, perhaps everything - but only about say 10% of all those Alexander made - even if we put all on a heap that are personally known to the members here.

IMHO there are already enough Dumble rumours and tales based only on "hearsay" or playing one at a friends house for a quarter of an hour.

What would be wrong in just saying: "I know three ODS: They looked like this and technically they have been like that and they sounded like that"?

Perhaps misinformations like:

"Non Hrm classic EQ is the oldest style of dumble amp" would stop then?

What is precisely meant by "oldest style of dumble amp"?

- 60ies 200 watt amps like Winterland #003.
- late sixties, early seventies OD prototypes with the 3-step OD gain switch?
- first small ODS from around `75 like Lindley's #003 and #008?
- "silverface" ODS with slide switches like #040 or #055
- "silverface" ODS with small toggle switches like #06X
- "blackface" ODS from early eighties with 250K treble, 100K mid, 250 K bass and a deep switch like #097 0r #099?

And all these are referred to as "Non Hrm classic EQ" - all amps from the late sixties to the early eighties made over a period of 15 years?

Perhaps someone who makes statements like this should make a bit clearer what he is talking about before writing "chapter one" of a new Dumble -Bible? And perhaps a bit "precision research" wouldn't be a bad idea too before starting to write the "History of the precision power supply"?

As Dumble amps are really rare beasts and hard to find to make some personal first hand experiences no one can be blamed who does not know much about these amps. But those who know only this and that - like myself - perhaps should better give up their "Dumble Expert" attitude when posting at forae like this?

In regard to "Dumble history" and "Dumble amps in general" there are some fine first hand infos you can find in some interviews with Alexander and his customers. I always wonder how often I read here redheaded discussions about topics in regard of those you can easily find first hand infos in these interviews.

Another good idea would perhaps be to sometimes take a closer look at the pictures on Rob's website and on the site called "treasures of equipment" (was Bill Morgan's/Yukihiro's site) before making statements here that are not even in accord to what everyone can see there with own eyes.

Cheers

Max

[erwin_ve]

I think Quinn amps wrote this to give some info about the amps he sells.

Max: off course there's more info, but for a starter who doesn't know anything about different types of dumbles this is more informing than the general TGP talk.

[Max]

I think Quinn amps wrote this to give some info about the amps he sells.

Max: off course there's more info, but for a starter who doesn't know anything about different types of dumbles this is more informing than the general TGP talk.

I know that "a bit of information, even wrong or not precise, is better than no information at all" is a widespread concept in all modern media and education. "Better telling children some stories about bees and flowers than nothing".

I personally don't believe in the educational concept, that "starters" are fools and should not be confronted with too much information to avoid overload.

I think they deserve the full truth with all the details from the beginning. If you really want to help starters here:

- Start a wiki to collect the known infos of Dumble amps and their iterations.
- Find some of the technical experienced guys like Brandon, Andy, Toni and many others to built a "Definite Dumble cloning info round table" responsable for all the wiki content to make sure that in this wiki the starter easily finds

a) a definite version of a schematic, layout and partlist, of all degooped (or without goop from the start) original amps agreed on by the members of the round table.

b) a clip of as many of the originals as possible done with known and same eqippement (guitar, mic. etc.) done in different playing styles and musical contexts.

c) defintite versions of the schematics, layouts and partlists of the most popular clone-versions of these originals.

d) clips of these most popular clone versions done like in b)

e) a list where all the parts from the partlist in a) and c) can be bought.

f) not in the wiki but in real life: "starter" events at ampshows etc. where "starters" have the opportunity to play an original out of b) and A - B - C this with some of it's most popular clones from c).

By all this the "starter" would be able to use his own ears and hands and guitar to find out what kind of original or clone would be best suited for his music, find the corresponding schematic, layouts, parts and their sources in the wiki and can start to solder or just buy the clone he liked best or perhaps even invest in an original one.

This would be a task that could be done here if all help. Most of the informations is already here - hidden in some thread. They must only be declared "valid" or "nonsense" by the "round table" guys and organised in the wiki.

Not easy! Who said? Think sportive!

This would be a far better help for "starters" IMHO as "bees and flower"-stories.

That's my personal point of view.

Best wishes

Max

[erwin_ve]

Sorry IMHO that's over the top information. What builder is gonna present that much info to his customers? That's ridiculous...
You're aiming a something totally different than the opening post. Not in a bad way but it's a different goal.

[Max]

Hi Erwin,

You are right!

We must all protect our brains from information overload. That's why we should all press the "On" button of our TVs at least for one hour a day.

Educated customers are indeed a nightmare for any professional business (The bigger, the more a nightmare!). Just imagine what would happen if people precisely knew what they eat every day! Who would clean the streets from all the vomit after telling them precisely?

That's why by some happy accident information has mostly been replaced by marketing. Otherwise our brains would have been long molten.

Make an experiment:
Try to find out by asking the Gibson customer service (and not by removing the pickups) if the body of a Gibson Custom Shop reissue of a 1956 Les Paul Custom is made from one piece mahogany like the old ones or from a mahogany body with a mahogany top. Good luck!

Cheers

Max

[erwin_ve]

Sometimes guitarplaying friends ask me questions about dumbles. If I start to talk like the way you do I lose them in 4 sentences.

I agree with you that there's a lot more info.
I like the idea of putting all info in a wiki.

I'm sorry, you can continue with your own observations. For a little background info it seemed appropriate to me.

[Max]

Sometimes guitarplaying friends ask me questions about dumbles. If I start to talk like the way you do I lose them in 4 sentences.

And what harm would be done if they loose interest already after one sentence and you talk with them about girls or cars or their new guitars? Do you feel the world would be a better place with more people knowing something about Dumble amps?

Max

[erwin_ve]

Max; please It's copied from the Quinn website. You think it's not appropriate info, I think it is.
For me case closed, you mentioned some good ideas.

[Max]

Max; please It's copied from the Quinn website. You think it's not appropriate info, I think it is.
For me case closed, you mentioned some good ideas.

Just one more time

Here is our difference:

The "Quinn" site, as reported by Bob, says:

all Dumble ODS before the first skyline EQ (mid switch and so on) amp did have the same EQ called the "classic" tonestack.

Based on my personal experience with around 10 pre-skyliner ODS this is not " not precise enough" or "not deep enough" info but

"wrong" info

as it is not corresponding to the reality (if we assume that everything is fine with my perception of reality).

And as far as I understand, the members here are looking for valid info that helps them to find out if e. g. cloning #040 would be worth the trouble or not.

And if someone thinks (following the Quinn info) that #040 has the same EQ as number #094 and he liked the clips of #094 he may be starting building a clone of #040 (reading Brandons post that #094 is a "classic") and thinking #040 is a classic too, as told by the Quinn site.

Then-after a lot of time and money - he will fire up his #040 clone, only to find out that his clone does not sound like #094, as in reality #40 is no "classic" as marcos explained in his posts in regard of this.

So the Quinn info may mislead people in a wrong direction (not a surprise as being a "wrong" info).

And in infos that could mislead especially the not so experienced "starters" I don't see much help for them.

And because I think, that the quality of the infos given here to the members can have a severe impact in regard of how well they do in their practice, I felt the need to contradict you with engagement.

That's my opinion. Yours is different and of course I respect your opinion. That's why this place is called "Dumble D i s c u s s i o n". There is nothing personal in discussing different point of views.

Have a great time

Max

[topbrent]

I think the spirit of the information in the OP and Quinn site is to be thought of as that of a broad brush stroke primer.

It is speaking in generalities regarding the common circuits.

The information seems to be provided to steer folks in a general design and tonal direction and is not pin-point precise, or model-number specific.

For that Pin-point precision, model # specific information, discussion and debate,... well,....that is what this place is for.

And I for one, am glad to be able to learn from you all here.

Cheers

[erwin_ve]

Max; I'm fine talking and discussing the ins and outs of several designs. I really like that.
Don't you feel describing this type of amp to the outside world is a whole different thing?

[Max]

Max; I'm fine talking and discussing the ins and outs of several designs. I really like that.
Don't you feel describing this type of amp to the outside world is a whole different thing?

What's the "outside world" in this context?

Max

[erwin_ve]

Max; I'm fine talking and discussing the ins and outs of several designs. I really like that.
Don't you feel describing this type of amp to the outside world is a whole different thing?

What's the "outside world" in this context?

Max

For example: the Quinn amp maker communicating towards his customers?