Converting ceriatone OTS to sss type?

[bigwebb83]

Is this possible? I love the dumvle overdrive sounds but i am most infatuated witht he classic dumble clean sound. is there anyway to squeeze this sound out of my ots/

[boldaslove6789]

IMO (and many others) The most important part to getting the SSS "sound" is the Post Phase inverter Cathode Follower Driver tube (sometimes a 12ax7 or 12BH7). The hi/low Step Filters are not crucial to the sound and are merely for tone shaping .

Fastest way to get there is to ditch the overdrive circuit and add the Driver tube after the PI. It'll certainly add that SSS type of sound and give the amp mucho clean headroom with little breakup.

Tommy Cougar has done this with his Phil Sayce amp with great results

Another thing you have to keep in mind is what SSS sounds you're looking for? John Mayer's SSS is only 100w with 4x6L6's and a "Classic" stack. Eric Johnson's SSS was a 150w with 4x 6550's and had a "Skyliner" stack.

[wicker]

You can use source followers using for example IRF830 instead of extra tube, some may say that this is not "true", that you should use tubes only... but it was proven that there is NO difference between tube or solid follower.
http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/m ... tfolly.htm

[Max]

Is this possible?

IMO this depends on personal taste, on the kind of OTS and on the individual specimen of SSS referred to:


1. IMO there isn't something like one single specific typical SSS sound:

All the (few) SSSs are AFAIK rather individual custom made amps built for a certain musician looking for an individual kind of tone:

Here's what Alexander Dumble once told about this:

I try to be flexible….Basically, I've kept the Overdrive the same but the other models are open to flexibility."

AFAIK some (and perhaps most) SSSs are amps for a "singing" lead guitar tone full of harmonically rich sustain.

The SSS data sheet concerning this:

"The "Steel String Singer" is designed to deliver the guitar sound necessary to fill stadiums and large halls. The power ability and tone circuitry work together to produce volume and tone of very exciting dimensions. This amplifier provides the player with a huge, clean sound that is enriched with a warm, singing quality."

And if Alexander Dumble tells, that "The power ability and tone circuitry work together..." I just believe him, that for this kind of tone and feel as described in this data sheeet you need the special combination of both, "power ability and tone circuitry" and not only a special kind of power amp because the filters are "merely for the tone shaping", as Greg writes in his post.

IMO the best typical example on record for this kind of singing lead guitar tone the SSS data sheet is talking about are the cuts recorded with a SSS - reportedly similar to the one of Eric Johnson - on Larry Carlton's CD "Renegade Gentleman". It's easy to identify these cuts, as Larry Carlton once told, that he used his SSS on the cuts that have been recorded in Nashville. And these cuts you'll find by the information in the booklet of the CD "Renegade Gentleman".

"TCC: It seems like your guitars and amps on that album ("Renegade Gentleman") have more of a raw sound. Where you using the Dumble at all? ..... It seems so much more unrefined. The Dumble gets that sweet glow to it. This is like all hell breaks loose.
LC: I had Dumble make me an amplifier for the second half of the Album. I explained to Dumble what I was looking for in terms of energy and punch with my Strat. He said you want a Steel String Singer. He brought Eric's over for me to play through before he was going to ship it to Eric (Johnson) in Texas. As soon as I played through it, I said that's it, I need that. That's what I used on a lot of the cuts we did down in Nashville."
20th Century Guitar, November / December 1994, page 88

These Nashville cuts on "Renegade Gentleman" are:

Crazy Mama, Cold Day In Hell, Amen A.C., Never Say Naw, Nothin’ Comes, I Gotta Right.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000W1 ... =dm_sp_alb

Another example for an IMO rather different kind of SSS tone is the one SRV preferred:

Alexander Dumble:

"There are some different things about Stevie's. His is set up more like a bass amp, modified to accommodate the guitar range. It's not the usual lead guitar "Singer" approach. One thing he liked was that he could turn the volume control all the way up and it didn't distort--it just got louder. He does make it distort sometimes because he has about 50 megatons of pressure when he attacks the strings [laughs]. He gets an incredible amount of signal out of his guitar, and most amplifiers can't take it. He did his first album with a bass amp I'd made for Jackson Browne."

This SRV version of the SSS is very well documented on many of the DVDs of his live performances, like the 1985 Montreux concert e.g. http://www.amazon.de/Stevie-Ray-Vaughan ... B0002N7I7S


2. As all the (few) SSSs are individual custom made amps built to deliver different kind of tones according to the personal taste of the individual customer, they are of course all rather different in a technical sense, too. Just some examples:

You'll find some with separate PI and driver tubes. But you'll also find specimens without such a separate driver tube, but with just the usual single PI tube. Here's e.g. the tone of such a SSS AFAIK without a separate driver tube: http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17298
And as you can read in the comments in this thread, some members here seem to like the tone of this SSS with AFAIK just one usual PI tube.

All SSSs I know of have the filter sections, but AFAIK not all these filter sections are done in the same technical way. And at least for my ears the different versions of these filter sections are an important part of the differences between the tone and timbre of different SSSs.

AFAIK you’ll find filter sections with 6 positions (300SL e.g.), 7 positions (David Lindley’s SSS e.g.), and even with 11 filter positions (Kirk Hammett’s SSS e.g. http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 720#184720 ).

AFAIK some "High" filters only accentuate certain high frequencies. Some "High" filters have positions attenuating some high frequencies, too.

AFAIK some filters have "off" positions, some not.

And then you'll find these different versions of the SSS preamp circuits combined with different power amp circuits from 100W to 300W (Dumbleland 300SL). And these combinations sound IMO rather different, too.

Some of these power amps have just one 7025 PI tube, some one 7025 PI tube and one 7025 driver tube, and some one 12AU7 PI tube and one 12BH7 driver tube, and the 300SL has one 12AU7 PI tube and two 12BH7 driver tubes.

AFAIK some SSSs break up more when driven hard, some less - or (nearly) not at all.

And all the SSSs I know of have a reverb circuit, and AFAIK these reverb circuits are rather different, too, what will IMO lead to further differences between the tones of two different versions of SSSs.


So concerning the question if a Ceriatone OTS could perhaps be tweaked to sound similar to some individual example of a SSS, this will IMO depend on what someone will perceive as "similar enough" depending on individual personal taste and on the OTS version, and it will of course depend on the individual example of SSS that someone likes best.

I know of players who use an original ODS or ODSR or ODR and think that they can get what they perceive as a SSS kind of tone with these original ODS/ODSR/ODR amps. And I know other players, who play or once played an original SSS and/or Dumbleland and some ODS/ODSR/ODR amps, too, and think completely different concerning this topic.

So IMO the answer to your question will depend a lot on personal taste. So it would perhaps make sense to post here what special version of a SSS you're referring to and what version of an OTS you have in mind that you would perhaps like to tweak into the direction of the tone of this SSS.

Another possibility could perhaps be to start by some trial and error kind of experiment that could be done without and before a modification of this OTS:

AFAIK all Ceriatone OTS amps offer the possibility to switch the OD "off" and they all have a preamp out / power amp in loop.

So you could perhaps just look for someone who owns a McIntosh or Dynaco etc. hifi power amp. Then you could perhaps try how you personally like the preamp of your OTS in combination with one of these hifi power amps. And you could perhaps try a combination of the preamp of your OTS with the power amp sections of amps like an Ampeg SVT or V9 etc., too. If you’re familiar with tube amp technology, you’ll know how to connect the preamp of a Ceriatone OTS with one of these power amps without too much degrading of the signal because of some mismatch etc.

This might be educational and might perhaps help you to find out if you think some kind of SSS mod of this OTS might be promising.

Another possibility would of course be to wait until you can ask one of those who’ll buy one of the Ceriatone SSS clones, that AFAIK are planned to sell in the future, how these compare to an OTS preamp connected to the power amp section of such a Ceriatone SSS clone.

Or you could perhaps ask someone else concerning the differences between the tone of one of the other SSS clones (High Plains Drifter etc.) compared to the preamp of an ODS style amp connected with the power amp section of such a SSS clone.

Maybe you could even ask some of the professional boutique amp builders, who offer SSS clones, to demonstrate this when there’s an opportunity for such a kind of demonstration at some amp show.

Cheers,

Max

[talbany]

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