So, NFB Is Good, But......?

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The Ballzz
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So, NFB Is Good, But......?

Post by The Ballzz »

Kind Friends (I hope),
Negative Feedback/Presence/Resonance/?????/Whatever, seems to be the dark magic/science of amplifier greatness! I have read many articles, chapters, dissertations, etc. only to find that at some point, the author disconnects with terms like "to taste" or "to desired response" etc, etc! These terms, along with nebulous descriptions of how it works don't really give a clear picture of what is actually happening under differing conditions! The dissertations provide schematics of how to achieve these different things, but I've never seen an actual graph, chart or frequency response analysis of what actually happens at the speaker output! Can anyone give me a clue here! :?: :shock: Can I make a guess that most amp builders are not willing to share this secret?
TIA,
Gene
pdf64
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Re: So, NFB Is Good, But......?

Post by pdf64 »

The NFB loop around a tube power amp with a speaker load would be quite complex to analyse.
The best methodology to use for such an analysis may be control theory, but that requires some tough math, though a look over the concepts may be helpful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory
Don't worry, it's probably not essential to become fully conversant with it, unless you want a deep understanding of what's going on.
But getting your head around poles and zeros, and 'margin of stability' may be helpful.
I've forgotten most of what I learned, but it was enlightening to be able to model and analyse a system so completely and has been helpful ever since.
Do you have a grasp of basic feedback theory, eg could you design an opamp circuit to achieve a specified bass or treble boost?
Do you understand the significant performance differences between an ideal opamp and an open loop tube power amp with speaker load? eg impact on output voltage of output impedance and load impedance.
The Ballzz
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Re: So, NFB Is Good, But......?

Post by The Ballzz »

WOW SIR!
I didn't realize that this forum was based in Greece! LOL. Just bein' a wise a$$ in stating that your reference is a little over my head. I'm well aware that my aspirations are considerably exceeding my skills, knowledge and expertise, but I have a TRULY new and innovative concept amplifier design that could revolutionize the industry! The difficulty is that I need to nail down how to provide the best of the best (Marshall & Fender Holy Grail) to help showcase the new concept! Only true "players" & "builders" will appreciate and even understand what I'm shooting for, but I'm scared to let out the real innovation for fear of having someone grab MY football to start a new game that I'm not part of! I'm looking for help and possibly a partner. I understand that, at face value, there is nothing new under the sun, but this is really a new way to use the old ways to accomplish most of the goals that, to date, have only been the equivalent of bandaids applied to severed limbs! I'm certifiably passionate and insane about this!

Please understand that this NFB issue is just a small piece of a much larger puzzle and that at 60 years old (as a rock & blues performer) with questionable health/longevity prospects, I don't have a lot of time to get this out there and I sincerely believe that it would be a shame to croak without getting this into the hands of performers who would appreciate it and be able to expand their creativity because of it!

I know that I sound like I'm blowing my own horn, because I am! These amps, if done properly, will likely bring an easy $5K+ for not much more in parts than a standard 100 watt Marshall clone! But they'll need to be crazy RIGHT and pristine. Am I crazy? You Betcha, like a fox!

Thanks For Helping To Highlight My Shortcomings! :P
Gene
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TUBEDUDE
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Re: So, NFB Is Good, But......?

Post by TUBEDUDE »

As Pdf64 said, an opamp's feedback loop is a fair, if limited representation to the standard power amp feedback loop. The elements in, or shunting the loop, change the amount and spectral balance of the signal returned to the phase inverter. As the returned signal is out of phase to the signal at that point, it "corrects" undesirable elements of the output signal. It can be used to shape the frequency response, and/or provide stability to prevent oscillation, audible, infrasonic or ultrasonic. That is where using pole and zero theory are helpful.
Personally, I am not a big fan of using the standard output loop for frequency shaping. I prefer to do that with component selection, or local feedback loops in earlier stages, or the feedback inherent in cathode biasing. If PA/PI loop feedback is the only way left to achieve stability, I'll use it as a last resort.
I feel that global feedback, and PA/PI feedback that transits the output transformer, causes a phase shift that skews the output signal, sucking the life out of my tone. The effect of this is a reduction in output, a dynamic compression of output, and loss of signal coherence, as the higher frequencies are phase shifted from the fundamental. Feedback? We don't need no stinking feedback! Just my opinion, YMMV.
We look forward to your revolutionary new design, solder on.
Tube junkie that aspires to become a tri-state bidirectional buss driver.
thejaf
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Re: So, NFB Is Good, But......?

Post by thejaf »

A minor but VERY significant aspect of great tone is what comes after the amp's speaker output. This is:

1. Cabinet (wood, geometry, etc)
2. Speakers (kind and number)
3. The room acoustics (VERY important in my experience)
fperron_kt88
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Re: So, NFB Is Good, But......?

Post by fperron_kt88 »

This ^(pdf64 and TUBEDUDE) and also the fact that most of what brings interest in tube amplification lies in non-linear behavior.

Poles and zeros, gain/phase margin, most of the classical control theory applies when *linear* operation is assumed. Which is a false hypothesis most of the time for the lovely behaviors of our tube guitar amps (gain compression, clipping, intermodulation).

What happens on the verge of clipping in an amplifier with feedback is well into *non-linear* operation. Hence, the standard tools fall short for explaining anything.

Like previously stated above, the tools are very good to describe how you can shape the frequency response of anything but ideal components: an OP amp with various linear things (res, caps, inductances) in the feedback loop. The description is in terms of frequency and phase response. It works. It's (relatively) simple. Tell me what you put in (amplitude, freq, phase), I'll tell you what comes out (amplitude, phase). Note that in this case the frequency won't have changed (because of the assumptions we made: linear!). No distortion alowed here!!! What fun is that??? Clean guitar???

You can very certainly build a model mixing linear elements and all the non-linearities you can care for: gain, clipping, hysteresis, time varying filters, compression, weird friction. Account for tubes, transformers, copper, getters, air, whatever weirdness you care to put into equations. The model will behave and (perhaps even) sound like the real thing (at least in part). That's what the modeller amps do (when the simulation time is compatible with the sampling time of a real guitar signal). Then you can analyze the resulting frequency content of the resulting wave and speak about what amounts to a "frequency response" of sorts.

The only problem is that the results you get (the frequencies that were generated) are specifically tied to the exact conditions you simulated. Hit the strings a smige-bit harder? Different frequencies! Both appearing and disapearring at different times.

You are then left with very complex waveforms to represent. Some tools still work. Stitching together a bunch of fft results from a wave is one (ie. waterfall spectrogram plot) or whatever you fancy computing. You can certainly print these and look at them. Describing them is a different thing: look at that spike there. Ah! Well, it's gone now!

Filling the gap between this and expressions like "chewy like the small bend VanHalen does on the 5th string for the riff in Panama", or "floating in a stadium filled with marshmallows" and whatever you have on a specific plot out of a non-linear simulation output is very hard.

That's probably why you don't see those fancy graphs anyways... My feeling is: nobody plots them! So we use the funny expressions ("chirp", "swirl", "girth", "sound different in the room"). But they somehow work because they relate to experience we can recognize or imagine...

Sorry for the long post... hope it can help.
...
John_P_WI
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Re: So, NFB Is Good, But......?

Post by John_P_WI »

Gene,

I believe that I have a general idea of the path that you heading, all I can say is rock on man... Don't let the constraints of generations of amp "copying" slooow you down.

If you will allow, I will suggest a few methods to "speed" up your learning.

1) Read, read and read more. Scour books such as TUT from Kevin O'Connor (TUT is very applicable to your post), Merlin Blencowe's books etc. Read every post from VacuumVoodoo (Aleks) and RG Keen, Gingertube (Ian) etc. I am fortunate to work with Senior engineers from the defense and medical industry, I myself am an engineer (mechanical) - there is no substitute for a solid foundation. Combined, the 3 of us have more than 90 years of experience and still refer to technical references and app notes. Never stop asking "why".

2) Build, Test, Prototype. Believe me, the fundamentals can be prototyped and tested at low voltages. Use a bread board, jfets, opamps, your scope and a good signal generator. Hours and hours should be spent with a pad of paper, pen and a handful of discrete components. I use Wavetek 164 function generators which will throw a 20v peak to peak signal which you will need for "switching", whether channel, feedback etc (also a lot of fun to play with diodes / clipping). An mp3 player just won't throw the "internal" signal levels that you want to simulate. Watch / listen what happens as you sweep frequencies. Prototype power supplies with 6v or 12v transformers. Learn how to split rails using a dc supply.

3) Coupled with above, learn how to use your test equipment. Get rid of / replace any item that performs sub par. Avoid "is it a problem with the circuit or your test equipment"? None of us have time to troubleshoot test equipment. Use a good BNC to BNC cable from the signal generator to a Tee on your scope. From the other side of the Tee use another BNC cable with mini clips to connect to your circuit. That way only 1 cable goes to the circuit, your scope channel 1 will always show the pure signal applied. Channel 2 will show the circuit under test using your scope probe.

4) As the circuits become more complicated, be aware of capacitive coupling, parasitics, interstage distortion etc. There is a reason old amps sound good - due to simplicity etc (and higher esr caps - hint). Be aware of capacitive loading of "optotron" switches, inductive kick pops from relays etc, etc.

5) Finally, look at the amp as a system which includes, guitar, fx, cables, amps, more fx, speakers and cabs, room dynamics / acoustics. There are an infinite number of combinations here. What sounds good in the shop, may not sound good in the mix.... Also we all have different likes in tonal flavor.

Good luck.
Garthhog
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Re: So, NFB Is Good, But......?

Post by Garthhog »

If you are going to go "out of the box" then you probably ought to partners with an electrical engineer.
Ryan Brown
Brown Amplification LLC
pdf64
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Re: So, NFB Is Good, But......?

Post by pdf64 »

This Aiken page may be helpful http://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/desi ... e-feedback
Though he seems to skirt over the affect that speaker impedance variation against frequency will have on gain.
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JMFahey
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Re: So, NFB Is Good, But......?

Post by JMFahey »

The Ballzz wrote:Kind Friends (I hope),
You can count on that :)
seems to be the dark magic/science of amplifier greatness! .... I've never seen an actual graph, chart or frequency response analysis of what actually happens at the speaker output! ..... most amp builders are not willing to share this secret?
Wouldn't call it dark magic.
Now , for a frequency response curve, you need either to build and actually trace it or simulate it as second best.

Since you don't seem to go for the first option, and don't have data or Math enough for the second, not sure on how we could advance along that road.

As of "sharing secrets", personally not sure there are such secrets at all, just lots of tweaking and a sharp ear.
I have a TRULY new and innovative concept amplifier design that could revolutionize the industry!
You won't believe how many times I have heard that exact same phrase ;)
These amps, if done properly, will likely bring an easy $5K+ for not much more in parts than a standard 100 watt Marshall clone!
Dumbles bring up to U$50K for what's basically a standard Fender plus an extra tube and a couple tweaks, but you can ask as much as you want, it's buyers who actually put the pile of dough on the table who confirm or deny your asking price.
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TUBEDUDE
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Re: So, NFB Is Good, But......?

Post by TUBEDUDE »

Don't sweat a lack of extensive knowledge concerning theory or design engineering. If you have the basics down, can solder, and use good safety practices, much of the rest will be learned by experimenting. Trying thousands of different resistor and capacitor values, combinations, and circuit changes in an iterative process will teach you a great deal. As stated above, theoretical design deals with perfect components, it doesn't take into consideration stray capacitance or inductance as you move components and wire around, or the inductive nature of caps or resistors etc. All theoretical designs must be fleshed out and tailored to meet real world conditions. A scope will help find spurious noise, ultra and infrasonics, the rest is trial by ear. Design, test, listen, repeat.
Tube junkie that aspires to become a tri-state bidirectional buss driver.
fperron_kt88
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Re: So, NFB Is Good, But......?

Post by fperron_kt88 »

^ +1

Experiment!
...
pdf64
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Re: So, NFB Is Good, But......?

Post by pdf64 »

A hazard with the reliance of experimentation in the absence of a solid grounding in topical theoretical knowledge is that for the experimental findings to be valid / beneficial, it may be necessary to put them in the context of the constraints and limitations of the experimental conditions.
eg with a resistive load, a cranked presence control may result in a 6dB boost at high frequencies and a stable system. However, with a real speaker load, the high frequency boost may be significantly higher, maybe 12-20dB and the system unstable.
The Ballzz
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Re: So, NFB Is Good, But......?

Post by The Ballzz »

Lots of fantastic comments and perspective, along with good food for thought and some specifics for my research. I'll definitely be asking more as I discover how much more I don't know!
Thanks All,
Gene
R.G.
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Re: So, NFB Is Good, But......?

Post by R.G. »

TUBEDUDE wrote:Don't sweat a lack of extensive knowledge concerning theory or design engineering. If you have the basics down, can solder, and use good safety practices, much of the rest will be learned by experimenting.
I agree with that - however, having done both approaches, the more extensive your theoretical knowledge, the faster it will be to get your designs done. It took some centuries from the discovery of electricity in the form of batteries for people to just experiment their way into knowing Ohm's law. It was another long experimental process to transformers and triodes. Yet longer to reliable circuits. You have to ask yourself how much of that you want to re-create on your own.

We all stand on the shoulders of giants - but the shoulders are there! Go ahead, climb up on the shoulders and use them! Don't let lack of advanced theoretical basis stop you. On the other hand, (1) go learn what could kill you, so you stay alive to keep experimenting and (2) learn enough theory to speed up the artistic side of your work.
As stated above, theoretical design deals with perfect components, it doesn't take into consideration stray capacitance or inductance as you move components and wire around, or the inductive nature of caps or resistors etc.
It used to be that way, and is with beginners still. The more experienced and worldy-wise the designer, the more their theoretical designs toss in "perfect imperfections". If you don't know the exact stray capacitance, a little theoretical thought says that self capacitance of a wire might be a few pF per foot, and self-inductance might be a few nH per foot. Does that much stray stuff make a difference? Ahah! Theory and some math can tell you it does or doesn't.

The use of "perfect components" is a little misunderstood. It's true that a capacitor used in a set of equations is more perfect than any real-world cap. But you can add perfect resistors and perfect inductances to that capacitor to make a model of dirty real-world capacitors to any degree that you want to pursue it. It's that isolation into perfect components, which don't really exist, that lets us think in terms of "well, this is the main effect of this being there, but then there's some additional resistance in series with it, and some inductance, and ..." so we can add enough dirtiness to get an understanding of what is really going on.

Theory isn't everything, but it sure speeds things up. I would say that the best approach is to do what >good< real-world engineers do: learn the basics, collect what works along the way, and refine your theoretical knowledge along the way by noticing what works and hanging that knowledge in the right places on the theory-tree.

Which is what pdf64 is talking about:
pdf64 wrote:A hazard with the reliance of experimentation in the absence of a solid grounding in topical theoretical knowledge is that for the experimental findings to be valid / beneficial, it may be necessary to put them in the context of the constraints and limitations of the experimental conditions
.

As an extreme example of the usefulness of theoretical understanding of the situation, one of my favorite notes in a scifi book was the following:
"Imagine the results if one of your most well educated, enlightened scientists from the late 1800s or early 1900s were placed in the control room of a functioning nuclear reactor."

IMHO, experimentation is absolutely critical in getting the artistically perfect sounds you hear in your head to come out of an amplifier. But knowing some theory will save you incredible amounts or time by letting you know which way to go to get there.

In either case, learn all you can!!

Sorry for the rant. I obviously have a bug about trying to understand things. But then I'm a technician, not an artist. :lol:
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