Going from prototype to production

[TheGimp]

You don't need CE unless you are selling in the EU. You don't need CSA unless you are selling in Canada.

UL is for safety only and is a good thing to get. They will test for abnormal conditions (shorted components, etc) to verify that the fuse protects the unit from bursting into flames etc. They will want complete documentation, schematics, bill of materials, etc for the preliminary evaluation. Then they may need at least one unit for testing. Typical testing I've seen involved wrapping the unit in cotton fiber and shorting one component to see if the cotton catches fire.

Once you get UL certification, you can't change anything without notifying them, and getting approval (which involves additional evaluation and cost).

You may also need EMI/RFI testing to insure that the unit will not interfere with other electronic equipment.

I've been to these guys in Atlanta on several occasions for certification of products for the company I work for.

http://www.intertek.com/contact/america ... states/#ga

I'd recommend you contact the Consumer Goods group.

[Aurora]

FWIW - and I don't know anything about US bussiness laws, - but from the many US court cases that gets known over here -
get those safety issues straight! The world is full of ignorant clowns, and one of them should not be given chance of a court case!

I've also given some thought lately, wether there could be a sort of local market for custom builds, but our electricity regulations are such that legally, I'm really not allowed to connect the primary side of an amplifier PT! Even if I'm fully licensed to work with HV a LOT higher than wall voltage ( radio transmitters and radar ) and often currents a lot higher than you'd get from any wall socket - that doesn't matter! Legally, I'm not allowed to change a light switch ot outlet in my own house. Electrical co's and licensed electricians got that monopolized a hundred years ago........
(What I do for myself and friends is another story...

[CircuitButcher]

Hi Cliff -

A lot of solid advice from coolidge, dreric, Mark & soma_hero.

I don't want to be a bubbleburster either but what you are considering isn't "Home on the Range".

Take a step back.

To me, the most important consideration is the purpose of the venture. Launching a business is an onerous task even with startup capital, but without financial resources, it's a no go zone unless your aim is a cottage industry hobby venture. Having the skillset to cover all the bases of a commercial enterprise is not common and coupled with the drive to to bring it to fruition, rare.

One way of clarifying the path is through simple decision tree analysis, which you may have already done.

You are a designer who has created an amp with attributes currently not on offer on the market. If the intention is to make available a quality pricepoint product, it may be helpful to determine your motivational position between the artistic and commercial.

If you find yourself leaning more towards the artistic end of the artistic/commercial spectrum the hobby/cottage industry path may be more attractive, but be careful not to become a slave to your passion.

If what you have designed is a commercial goer, I would take Phil_S suggestion a step further and talk to Hartley Peavey about a joint venture or licensing arrangement. Peavey should have knowledge of the segment size of the market, price point ect.

And then there is everything in between.

I appreciate your view of marketing, where it is not the quality/performance of the product but the pitch/hype/spin that gets the traction with joe consumer. There are many reasons why the world has become price oriented (marketing not the least) and quality has been the victim. So much so that it has been the catalyst for a burgeoning quality small builders of tube amps which we are all interested.

A friend of more than 40 plus years is an owner/artisan in high-end carpentry. He was telling me on Crispness eve how he should be working at Walmart (I suggested Lowes) for the minimum wage, having just spent 15hrs completing the installation of an assignment the day before, after agreeing to make modifications to the quoted design. Good businessman, no. Fine craftsman, yes.

Which ever way it floats, I hope this is a winner for you.

[daydreamer]

As far as liability is concerned, there is insurance for that. We call it 'Public Liability Insurance' over here. Funny that From what I have found out over here, it really comes down to the transformers/ components being tested/ certified for the market. The rest is up to how much you don't want ot be SUCCESSFULLY sued.

don't forget, it take money to sue, if your documentation is in order (manuals, with big bold safety warnings, how to treat the amp etc) your OK. No-one ever got money from toaster manufacturers when someone drop it in the bath, FIT FOR USE is the principle..

Build units yourself and do what Gimp suggested, then drop one off stage and plug it back in, all the stuff you know musos WILL DO (spill beer on them, pack them upside down in a combi van under a well used matress, you know, the usual stuff!!!)

I think your skills already tell you what will and won't survive. Over engineeer and lock everything down with silicone, then create hype that it's all a 'big secret' what all the goop is covering. Don't patent it, because then you will have to show the world that there really isn't anything to hide!!

Create mystique, but sell bread and butter amps. Just make sure they are 'rock and roll' and have sex appeal.

[dreric]

As far as liability is concerned, there is insurance for that. We call it 'Public Liability Insurance' over here. Funny that From what I have found out over here, it really comes down to the transformers/ components being tested/ certified for the market. The rest is up to how much you don't want ot be SUCCESSFULLY sued.

don't forget, it take money to sue, if your documentation is in order (manuals, with big bold safety warnings, how to treat the amp etc) your OK. No-one ever got money from toaster manufacturers when someone drop it in the bath, FIT FOR USE is the principle..

I'm not sure what the legal climate is in Australia but the U.S. has lead the world in litigiousness.

Commenting on the quotes above:

I don't believe that the U.S. has laws regarding public liability or if their are clauses within business or personal liability insurances. In fact, the U.S. has extensive laws preventing business or individuals from assigning liability.

Situations such as a waiver of liability for bodily injury while you are skiing ski resort are routinely challenged. I had a patient who won a six figure settlement for facial and arm burns because a can of WD40 ignited in her hand. Her gas dryer was squeaking while it ran so she decided to put it out from the wall, reach around back and blindly spray WD40 into the dryer motor area while it was running. The basis of her suit was that the dryer company should have foreseen possibility this and placed written warning on the machine.

IMO, their is no such thing as a successful defense from a lawsuit. The defendant will be paying for their defense typically at 150-300 dollar per hour plus court and legal processing fees. The plaintiff will have a lawyer who is working on contingency. They will have no out of pocket expense and if the don't win the lawsuit there is rarely a consequence to them or their lawyer. This inequity has filled the U.S. court rooms with frivolous lawsuits.

For the defendant it comes down to cost in a game of legalized extortion. x amount of dollars to settle the case and it goes away or x amount of dollar to fight the case and you may or may not win and the cost of defense may increase exponentially.

For a new business, such as Cliff is suggesting or for a successful business $50,000-250,000 in legal fees can destroy you.

Eric

[harryk]

I started building hand made tube amps as a hobby when I was young, but now I am manufacturing them on semi professional basis. I started this business more seriously some 5 years ago by creating my own web pages and a brand/name for my amps. My first customers were my band mates, and now everybody in the band plays with my amps. I was and still am pretty active following discussion forums for players and amp builders attending to different topics when I see it interesting.

In Finland you have to have your own web pages in any business, or you do not exist business wise. Within 5 years I have made some 60-70 different tube amps and I am aiming to do 20-30/year if everything goes well.

[C Moore]

I started building hand made tube amps as a hobby when I was young, but now I am manufacturing them on semi professional basis. I started this business more seriously some 5 years ago by creating my own web pages and a brand/name for my amps. My first customers were my band mates, and now everybody in the band plays with my amps. I was and still am pretty active following discussion forums for players and amp builders attending to different topics when I see it interesting.

In Finland you have to have your own web pages in any business, or you do not exist business wise. Within 5 years I have made some 60-70 different tube amps and I am aiming to do 20-30/year if everything goes well.

How about a link to your website......

[harryk]

Link to my web pages is www.bluetone.fi By the time I was inventing brand/name to my tube amps, I searched with google if thre are any companies with that name. I did not find any, but later it came out that there was a company in USA with name Blue Tone manufacturing guitar amps based on transistor technology, not tubes. I now have heard that this company is not active anymore. I focus my small business to Finland and countries nearby like Russia and Baltic countries etc.

[Cliff Schecht]

I think for now I'm just going to build a few to sell around town as a start. If people like them I will just keep using the money I make to crank more out. Once I sell a few I can start looking into a custom chassis. PCB's are cheap and I don't mind using PCB mounted sockets and making things quicker and more consistent.

So a big fat bold safety warning in the instructions (and maybe on the amp) is all I need to be covered?

[ampgeek]

With regard to small scale, start-up marketing, don't overlook your local recording studios in the plan. If you can "sell" the owners/engineers on the amps attributes and "give" them a sample for their in-house amp stable, you may find them being used in marketed recordings which could be pointed to as a professional foot hold of sorts.

The same could be said for local clubs and entertainment production companies that provide equipment for visiting and/or local musicians.

Good luck in your endeavour!!

Dave O.

[Cliff Schecht]

Yeah I mentioned in my first post that this amplifier is meant for studios first and foremost. It'll push out enough sound to mic up well but won't have the usual bleedover issues that 50-100W amps do. I have a few studio owner buddies that I'm planning on building amps for anyways.

[TheGimp]

I'd say the most important part to have on a PCB would be the power supply. This is a critical area for safety, and having it on a PCB would give repeated design quality control.

One test I recommend is to remove your output tubes, and put a max load in place of them on the B+ and then slowly increase it until something gives. UL and CSA require a 4 hour soak at worst case with a shorted component before they will accept that it won't burst into flames. So you want to find where you can blow a fuse, then back off the load slightly so it can run for four hours without blowing the fuse. This is a room temp test so you can do it on your work bench (with a fire extinguisher in view of the unit while filming).

This is one area that having no ventilation holes is a good thing as they wrap cotton wadding around the unit to test for flames and hot components falling through holes and catching the cotton on fire. If there are no holes, there can be no egress of hot components etc.

Do this test and record it with a video recorder if you are going to sell a few units without going through UL. At least you can then show due diligence in designing your amp for safety and testing it to verify the robustness of the design.

You may need to sacrifice one OPT and power transformer to demonstrate that a partially shorted output tube will not cause a catastrophic failure.

I don't like fuses in that they are very imprecise devices. Their fusing characteristics vary radically with temp. That said, a second fuse in line with the B+ from rectifier to first cap might not be a bad idea. This could be a "non customer serviceable component" on the PCB in addition to the primary fuse on the AC Line in.

Here is another idea for construction. Get your local fab shop to bend a sheet of 1/8" Al sheet to make a channel that slips over your chassis. Drill all your holes through the cover, then use it for a pattern for the next builds.

Here is the one I'm using with all the front, rear and most top holes drilled. I didn't drill the transformer mount holes yet as I'm waiting for a new power transformer to try higher B+.

In addition to drilling the chassis, you can use the front pattern to drill you wood slat for the front to get the holes properly aligned.

[daydreamer]

I had a patient who won a six figure settlement for facial and arm burns because a can of WD40 ignited in her hand. Her gas dryer was squeaking while it ran so she decided to put it out from the wall, reach around back and blindly spray WD40 into the dryer motor area while it was running. The basis of her suit was that the dryer company should have foreseen possibility this and placed written warning on the machine.

Man, that is amazing....so the court thinks she could read?

[TheGimp]

In the USA it is not about who is right, it is about who has the attorney that can sway the jury.

Pilot holes to fully punched and ready to assemble in 1Hr 5 minutes. I figure with drilling pilot holes it takes about 1hr 15 minutes.

As I step up in drill size and complete a set of holes I mark through them with a magic marker so I don't accidentally drill them to a larger size.

If I had a select set of drills in a block of wood all ready to go I could knock a couple minutes off the time. Same with the hole punches.

I think I could complete a chassis start to finish in 1Hr if I had everything ready.

[Cliff Schecht]

You chamfer those holes at some point right? Chamfering hard to reach holes takes me longer than drilling out an entire enclosure sometimes. I need to get one of those little zippy tools for the hard-to-reach holes. I found a pair of bent-nose pliers work as a quick sub if the hole is going to be hidden (and you don't care about your pliers).