Going from prototype to production

[Cliff Schecht]

I just finished an amp design that incorporates a clean, vintage and modern sound with just two switches and a master volume. It fits in a 6x4x2 chassis and sounds huge for an amp that fits in your hand. I feel that I finally have something that nobody else offers and would like to take this design into the production phase. I have literally everything mapped out, sources for all of the parts I need and even have a simple 5-fold chassis that the whole thing will fit in (I used a Hammond 6x4x2 for my prototype build). I took the amp to a few guitar shops around town and the opinions were great, even from the discerning ear of the local vintage amp gurus.

So I'd like to take this design into the production phase. I have boards designed for it and custom transformers that I can order from Marvel Magnetics for very reasonable prices (Mag Comps parent company). But there are a few places where I really lack experience. I've never sourced my own chassis before, don't have a way to build wooden enclosures and am extensively lacking in the funds necessary to start such an endeavor. The amp doesn't cost that much to make and I'm really wanting to sell it at competitive prices, but this is only if I can make it a viable product. I'm familiar with what it takes to actually put out a product (I've done so many times with PAiA) but that's a company with financial backing and a 40-50 year history. I assume I need to start some sort of LLC too..

What advice do you guys have when it comes to actually manufacturing and selling your products? Is it good to just start locally and move forward from there? Is it even worth it to try to compete with the Marshall's and Fender's of the world?

[MCK]

Cliff, I have none of the answers you're seeking being a lurker hobbyist myself but just wanted to write in and wish you all the best in your endevours. I have been reading your many posts providing help to beginners like me and exchanging well thought ideas with the pros on board. Hope your amp sells like crazy and you enjoy what you do. In this economy just make sure not to get over-invested.

PS. A great youtube demo posted done by a great player strategically on TGP seems to sell many amps these days.

[Phil_S]

Think big. See if you can call up some known amp producers and ask them what it takes. Hartley Peavey would be at the top of my list. You can also try any number of established boutique builders. They all started somewhere, and I'll bet many of them didn't figure it out on their own. IMO, you really need to talk to people who've been successful. Some will be jerks and some won't want to bother. You'll find someone who will. You will need a thick skin. Try to think of "No" as "Not yet." Go for it, Cliff!

[xtian]

You can't market this thru PAiA?

BTW, please put me on your beta test list!

[Drumslinger]

Cliff,

best of luck man. Hope things fall into place for you.

[coolidge]

The chassis is no problemo. As an example the CNC punch press shop I use will punch, fold, weld, clean, powder coat, and silk screen a chassis to exacting standards +- .004 inches. Its a numbers game though, 1 chassis might cost $400, 10 cost $75, 40 cost $35.

I'd say money is your biggest hurdle, if you don't have any money then your faced with trying to find someone else to put up all the money and take all the risk. That doesn't usually end well for the inventor.

I would scrape up the funds to make 10-20 of these and sell them. You will have a stronger position to negociate with an investor with an actual product built and sold vs a great idea. That's my 2 cents worth.

[Cliff Schecht]

Thanks for the kind words guys! I was posting here to see if any of the big builders had some more general advice for starting out. I'm not trying to steal anybodies trade secrets and may try to have some private discourse with some boutiquers to see what they have to say.

Only problem with PAiA is that they mainly manufacture kits. We actually had planned on building this design and I may go through them for help with some of the metalwork and stuff. But it's hard to sell a kit without a solid backing and I think starting out with production models that I know sound as they should is a better start then putting out a kit and hoping for the best.

[Dr-Joned]

I hate to burst your bubble, but I think that Randall Smith has patented the process of marketing new amps.

[daydreamer]

Hey Cliff,

Good luck, sounds like a great little amp.

I'm always attracted to an amp that looks different, something that catches my eye. I think if you are going to compete in local stores and get the money you need, firstly your amp has to be PLAYED!! Sounds obvious, but even the big boys get that bit wrong.

For me it's visual attraction first, then the sound backs it up. Over here I walk into stores and it's a wall of Marshalls, Fenders, Peavey and the odd Egnator and Mesa. Some stores might have Orange and the Voxs. Very few custom or boutique. So...

Number one: STAND OUT (no tweed or marshall styling), no-one plays what they haven't seen/ noticed, and no-one buys what they haven't played. You may sweet talk some shelf space, but no-one is going to actively sell the amp for you, unless it really is the next big thing...(thats a whole lot of 'no-ones'!!!, I'm sure there a plenty of exceptions, but they don't count in a business plan)

Number two: pair it with a CLOSED back cab. I think they sound better at guitar store volumes. You get about 30 seconds to make a first impression, and not many will turn up that loud even with a dedicated room. Either that or have a built in reverb; whatever you do, it has to sound 'big and warm' from the get go.

Just my 2c and what I'll be doing eventually, so if it's shit advice, let me know so I can avoid it.

As an aside, I've actually got the styling and cabs sorted for what I want to do, but no circuit yet, I'll be really interested in hearing your amp, as I know you are the real deal...

Andy

[dreric]

Cliff

Good luck on your adventure!

When it comes to starting an amp business I have no direct experience. However, when it come to setting up and running a business(es) I have a ton. Your questions regarding chassis and cabinet have easy solutions. IMO, there are some very important questions that you should be asking.

First, I'd sugesst you look at the builders who are doing well (we assume) and are on this page. FUCHS, Glasswerks, Quinn, Bludo and sorry I am not that familiar with the Trainwreck side of things but I'm sure there are people selling amps in that section. I think these guys would respons to a PM much more than a post. Be clear that you are not making a completing product.

Questions that I would ask them and yourself:

1. Is their product CE and UL certified (approved?) IF yes what did that take, cost and how much did it affect the design.

2. Don't ask anyone but find out for your self what are the risks and consequences of making a product, as a business and a individual, without these certifications.

You are talking about starting a business. With that you become liable for the safety of your product. I don't know for sure but the impression I have is that many builders are short cutting this step. Designs that were safe in 1965 won't pass today. I don't believe that Dumble or Fisher took this step. Personally, I doubt either amp would pass certification. (high voltage held in place with silicon in a lacquered wooden box .......?) If you choose to do that, fine but I would know the risks.

3. Decide what venue you are going to sell in and structure your product and marketing around that.

Web based?
Amp show based?
Brick and Mortar?
eBay?

4. Not to rain on anyone's parade but the world of guitar amps is full of hype and buzz. Having a good product is one part. Who you get to review, play and write testimonials for is arguably more important. How are you going to do that?

5. How can you take your experience at PAIA and use that to qualify you as a expect in design etc. There are only two ways to demonstrate expertise in an area.

a. Create a product or idea that provides a NEW solution for a common need. Communicate the uniqueness in an effective way, think of Line 6. In the world of electronics this is very difficult, in the vacuum tube world any claim of uniqueness seems to create endless criticism and debate.

b. Become the reporter. "I've xxx experience and I've studied every design and combined them into a product that meets your needs for xxx."

6. Lastly and most importantly define your goal for this business. Do you want to be an individual selling directly under the radar or do you want to be in every store? Think Big!

Good Luck

Eric

[M Fowler]

Cliff,

I have counseled a lot of young people regarding starting a business but never an amplifier business

But you noted:

I took the amp to a few guitar shops around town and the opinions were great, even from the discerning ear of the local vintage amp gurus.

This is one of the best things you have done for your self. Most people start by getting known local long before they went on a large scale.

You need a solid business plan. I don't know if your working out of home/garage/basement and based on your words not buying an actual business building for which you could apply for 5 year tax excemption. Small business Adminstration (SBA) and use of SCORE retired business Entrepreneurs’ that help you with your business plan.

My local city doesn't reguire business license for this type of work and the state doesn't require a license only to apply for business sales tax number.
You need to start there if your going to buy parts under your own business name rather then PAIA.

My area also has Regional Councils that help you with low interest business loans. My local County gave me a really low interest loan when I started my old business, long gone now.

Just some things to ponder.

Mark

[soma_hero]

Cliff,

I work for a boutique amp maker here in Seattle. I've just joined in the last six months, the company has been around for about 2 years. I'm not sure whether or not I should reveal who i work for or not so i'll just play it safe for now since i'm not the boss man.

Anyway, it has been a tough go for sure. This is probably not something you can fully dive into and expect to make an income (or even stay afloat) for awhile. You will need to slowly gain momentum. However, it is possible!

You will need money, is the bottom line. Look into the requirements for selling products, needing an LLC, etc.

The problem you have with trying to be affordable is the cost overhead. We get chassis machined by a local CNC shop, and order maybe 10 at a time to keep the cost lower. It is still not cheap, but they look great and we don't have to buy single chassis and drill out every single hole. Saves time, costs more, but overall as far as labor is concerned it probably equals out. Since this sounds like a small amp, you won't need a huge steel chassis. We make 100 to 300W amps so we need beefy chassis. You may be able to approach a local machine shop about bending up simple 18g steel or ally chassis for cheap and then drilling them yourself. Guys like us that make amps for hobby drill out chassis all the time don't we? It's not that hard. If you bought 10 chassis at a time it would probably be very reasonable. Bending up chassis is not labor intensive for those guys.

We have business discounts with merchants so we get parts cheaper from CE, Weber, etc. and buy in bulk. This won't be the same for you, unless Paia can help out there.

We make our cabs ourselves. Just get a dovetail jig and a router and table saw and go to work. Takes some experience to get them looking perfect but you are more than capable of doing it I'm sure.

I'd say make 10, use the Marvel trannys or whatever you can find that doesn't break your wallet. Then sell them locally. Get on craigslist, get them into guitar shops, pawn shops, put up fliers. Just get your name out there and advertise DIY style. We now have a large base in the Seattle area, having sold over 200 amps locally. Now people go to shows and see our amps and then when they want to get a new amp they remember us. Be aware that usually stores will want 40%. This has kept us out of guitar center and other stores up till now, because we're not charging the same as other boutique amps and so we can't afford to lose 40% of the profit. It's not worth the labor to get paid $8 an hour in the end. Sell them so you can make enough for parts for the next. Don't expect to make a huge percentage at first, but eventually if you're buying bulk and get the parts cost down you'll save there, and eventually you can charge more for the amp.

It is all very possible! Don't quit your day job just yet, and really evaluate the end goal here. Do you just want to have fun doing it, or do you want it to pay the rent at some point?

[Cliff Schecht]

One thing I don't have is a solid business plan. I'll start looking into that. The safety aspects also worry me, I'm selling handmade high voltage devices and don't know what the liability is really like on a product like this.. I'd love to hear more from CE and UL certified boutique builders to see what hoops they had to jump through.

I want to stay small-time for now, just keep stuff on hand and build them on a per-order basis, minus the few that would be sitting in guitar shops around town. Is there anyway to avoid liability issues without an LLC, certifications and all of that?

The only reason I'm considering this now is I've been doing the research for half a year now and haven't seen too many amps that will compete with what I have to offer. It's a lot of cool sounds in a tiny package. My initial goal was focused on making a low powered, simple but great sounding studio amp that can cover a lot of territory with few controls. It's also just a fun little amp to flip on at 1:00 AM through a little 5W speaker and wail away with. Lots of potential in this design if I can keep the costs down, but I'm not quite aiming for the GC/MF market. I may not like the tag but I'm trying to do the boutique thing and maybe some custom work for others interested.

I do need to find a solid player in town and have them run it through its paces on video. I think that plus having a few amps around town and having a decent website up would be enough to get started. I just worry that this will become a big headache as I work on my research for school. That's why I want to stay small, so I don't get too swamped and end up digging myself into some sort of hole.

Twister amps is a good example, but I don't the the owner of that company knew enough to tackle some of the projects he decided to take on. Making crazy promises like he did (4 or 5 gain stages, channel switching and bunches of other crap) and not having enough knowledge or experience to back that up will put someone out of business quicker than they got into it.

I hate the way modern marketing is done and would prefer to build a reputation by word of mouth as I've started doing. To me there is no greater satisfaction than seeing other musicians really enjoy the amps I've worked so hard to build. It's always an honor when somebody chooses your amp over their vintage Fender, Marshall and boutique amps because it does what it promises and does it well. We all borrow from the designs of the past but I don't really even feel comfortable peddling other peoples designs. I get asked to build clones often and always turn those amps down. That's not what I do. I build others designs for myself, study them and incorporate that knowledge into my own stuff. I've spent too much time and money getting a decent booklearnin' to not being doing my own thing..

[Phil_S]

Cliff,
You are going to receive all sorts of advice along the way, some good, and some very well intentioned and very bad advice. Being able to sort through this will require good counsel, so try to surround yourself with reliable people you know and trust. Don't be afraid to say, "I don't know," but do follow up and find out and make sure to keep fact and fiction sorted out.

I'm not going to attempt tackle the details, as they are numerous and I don't really know you or your situation. I do know however, that the richest man in the world (Bill Gates) got rich because he was able to license MS-DOS to IBM and retain the rights. It was a colossal blunder by IBM, one for the business history books. So, whatever you do, this is probably point number one -- do whatever you can to retain the rights to and control of your product. There is nothing wrong with a short term licensing deal to get it out there, but don't let go of it without a substantial monetary reward.

Also, this is hardware, and it can and should be patented. Do that without delay. Basically, the patent office grants patents willy-nilly, first come, first served, and lets the patent holders and the complainers duke it out in court. Going to court is darn expensive. http://www.uspto.gov/ Consider this a boot on your butt and get to work!

Please accept my sincerest best wishes for your long term success with this project and those to follow. And how about some youtube sound clips for us!!!

Phil

[dreric]

One thing I don't have is a solid business plan.

Highly recommend:

http://www.amazon.com/One-Page-Business ... 1891315072

In business, the difference being being successful and failing is doing what works rather than what you want to work.

e