Liability in amp building

[billsterl]

Hi-not a fun subject. I am retiring from teaching at the end of this school year and am looking at things to keep me busy and to maybe even make a couple bucks so I can continue to buy my toys. I saw on another posting where a guy said he quit building amps for fear of being sued. Years ago I had a woodworking business and I had some product liability insurance on things I made I think it was figured on the amount I made. The more I made the more I paid. Also say I made a Hoffman board up and sold it what would be the liability on that is a customer say got a shock off his filter caps. It sucks but this is the world we live in I am just trying to weigh the risk and expense if I want to get into this field. Music is big in my area and I think there may be a market for vintage type amps. I live just a few miles from Woodstock New York so there is alot of cool stuff going on musically all the time.

[MarkB]

Many guys sell amps to friends, local musicians, etc. but I think this is an important issue. If someone's child gets shocked, or a house burns down, I wouldn't want to take responsibility. If you run DIY electrical devices in your house, insurers can refuse to pay off on a claim. That means somes looking for you. The risk is very small, but the outcome is very nasty if the worst happens. Chances are good that you'd never have a problem - if your build quality is good - but you'd never get a small business loan without insurance, and they don't deny you just to be dicks - they know what's necessary.

[stevlech]

Ugh. This is not a fun thought, but it is very important to be concerned. I've read that the end user assumes responsibility if the product is not approved by a consumer agency (UL, CE, etc). I don't know if this helps or not... When I build an amp for someone else (even myself) I have a reputable amp tech give it a look. It never hurts to have a second pair of eyes check your work.

[billsterl]

Good idea to have someone else take a look just to see you didn't miss something. Thanks

[drz400]

Ugh. This is not a fun thought, but it is very important to be concerned. I've read that the end user assumes responsibility if the product is not approved by a consumer agency (UL, CE, etc). I don't know if this helps or not... When I build an amp for someone else (even myself) I have a reputable amp tech give it a look. It never hurts to have a second pair of eyes check your work.

Basically unless you have millions of dollars to waste on a lawsuit it doesn’t make sense to sell amps unless you have proper protection.
CE, UL does not promise that you will win the lawsuit but it does give you the edge to show that you practiced due diligence. Without CE or UL you WILL loose the lawsuit and your insurance company if you have one will walk away since you did not follow the proper guidlines. Just as they will not cover a fire if you lite it yourself.
Lets not forget there are many things that we take for granted that can bite you in the ass big time. Just cause you sell an amp to a friend for cheap or cost does not mean that the guys wife will forgive you when their 2 year old touches those pretty tubes that didn’t have proper screen grill preventing from her from touching them. There are a million things that can go wrong. Many insurance companies are dying to blame the cause of an incident on non approved product. It might be the other guys insurance company suing you after a claim, not your friend.
CE approval provided everything passes usually runs around $5000 plus the destruction of the first article. I have a friend who deals with this all the time. It is nothing to play around with.

Getting an amp tech to look at it I'm sorry to say doesnt mean jack.
Shit happens and he isnt going to pay your bills, Saying that you had joe blow check over the amp doesnt help unless he has the qualifications to slap a CE sticker on there. Now maybe if you had the someone who you sell the amp to sign a legal contract releasing you from any responsibilty you might be OK but that would be a question for a lawyer.

I am in total shock as to how many boutique amps are NOT CE or UL. These guys are really setting themselves up for a disaster, they are sitting ducks. There are people who look for product to deliberately hurt themselves on.

[billsterl]

Wow! Makes you think twice about helping someone out with an amp. Maybe this is why there are so many people selling kits instead of finished amps. I remember reading about kit aircraft and that people were building small planes because of liability issues and the way around it was to sell a kit that would end up being an experimental aircraft and that the final assembler was the responsible person. I hope in the future we will still be able to afford to buy things like ladders and power tools that people can hurt themselves on. Or we need to change the laws about personal responsibility for your actions. The pendulum has swung to far the other way I hope it doesn't kill the American businessman.

[Bob-I]

Maybe this is why there are so many people selling kits instead of finished amps. I remember reading about kit aircraft and that people were building small planes because of liability issues and the way around it was to sell a kit that would end up being an experimental aircraft and that the final assembler was the responsible person.

Very odd. I would've though that a kit was a greater liability because you're allowing the end user inside. Most electronic stuff has some sort of warning label to stay out.

I've only sold a few amps but it always makes me nervious thinking about some guy putting a beer on the amp.

[VacuumVoodoo]

There are some safeguards against liability apart from insurance etc. Write a good User Manual for your amp and include detailed Safety Instructions. Have a look at some german amps manuals, for example Hughes&Kettner, their safety instructions are very detailed. Make sure you put in a disclaimer about "Improper Use" that covers violation of Safety Instructions by user/owner/roadie etc. Have product registration cards that require buyer to sign "I have read and understand safety instructions" line. Make it clear that any warranty you provide is void unles this is signed and returned to you.

About CE marking: Putting the CE mark is your sole responsibility. It says that you declare that your product complies with relevant IEC regulations and norms. For amps: LVD - Low Voltage Directive norm EN6005 and transformers must comply with EN61558-2-4/6. Another is EMC - Electromagnetic compatibility.
You must have a "Technical File" showing how compliance has been verified and confirmed. For this you will need either rent test equipment and conduct all tests yourself - expensive, time consuming and not reliable, or let an accredited lab do this for you. This is the best way and, in fact, most cost efficient.
Find an accredited lab that will work with you to have your amp certified, not a bunch of besserwissers who will try to sink you.
The trick is to involve such a testing lab as early in your project as possible so that you can avoid most of the traps. Another advantage is that the lab will be responsible for maintaining your "technical File" and the certificates they issue. You will have to send them updates if you make any changes to your amp that may influence safety issues.

The purpose od safety testing is NOT to destroy your amp. Some tests may be destructive by their nature but a responsible lab should discuss the issue with you before they apply a potentially destructive test procedure. Testing involves introducing shorts and/or simulating component failures at critical points in the amp. The norm says only a single failure at one time is required but all possible failures must be introduced and tested.

It doesn't matter if the amp is nonfunctional or recovers from failure, the objective of safety testing is to detect and identify any failure mechanisms that may lead to fire/burn/electrical shock hazard.

Having done all that should also result in lower insurance rate.

How to sell kits: sell only a collection of parts. Have someone else provide assembly instructions that do not mention your kit in particular. Should work, but no guarantee - I don't speak legalese..

[billsterl]

I was thinking of setting myself up to make Hoffman boards because I want a couple for myself. And I was thinking of buying the setup to make them. Most of his board manufacturers sell complete boards but some also sell just the turret board. But I would be using his layout and instructions.

[Normster]

I have no legal background either, but I can't help but wonder if something like Dumble's "prototype" agreement would provide some level of protection. In other words, before building an amp for a customer, have them sign a prototype agreement that explains the one-off nature of the product, clearly states that it hasn't been tested by UL or CE, and releases the builder from liability.

[VacuumVoodoo]

That dog won't bark. Even one offs must comply if you sell them or even give away for free. The only exemption is equipment that you build for your own private use in your own home. That's at least what EU regulations say. I have no idea what US regulations are. I had dealings with UL some years ago and some of their test methods where, hmm...a bit archaic, at least then, perhaps they adopted the IEC procedures by now.

[jaysg]

When it's come up before, someone who has done it recommends setting yourself up as an LLC and buying liability insurance or becoming bonded. I think Graydon Stuckey said that the insurance was less than he expected. ymmv...and, someone may know this -- are there any UL/CSA/CE marks on Dr.Z amps?

[MarkB]

Even if you get a buyer to sign a contract to accept responsibility, that doesn't mean you are protected. Courts don't generally let people sign away their rights. Even when it is specifically allowed, like pre-nuptial agreements, judges still will throw them out under the right circumstances.

The way to answer the question would be to talk with an insurance agent.

[VacuumVoodoo]

Have there been any liability law suits involving amp makers? Apart from some cease and desist court orders based on intellectual property infringements.

[Richie]

What about buying the old amps.. If you do repairs,you better think twice before sticking your hand in the back of an amp. I've seen OTs with top lugs replaced in some amps that didn't have them..which would give a nasty shock if you reached in and touched it. I would be more scared of the old stuff than some new stuff. You just never know what you might find in some old amps.
Even some new high dollar amps glue or silicone the caps in.