Why so little Gibson amps clones ?

[wicker]

Any ideas ? Just wondering loudly...

[diagrammatiks]

I would guess because they weren't that popular or widespread to begin with and therefore not a lot of people are looking to buy clones.

In the US the used prices on the Gibson amps are fairly low.

That being said the amps aren't hard to build, not any harder then any of the other amps that are usually cloned.

[Cliff Schecht]

I've still got the parts and transformers for a Gibson GA-100 bass amp build. Jon built one and I think enjoyed it quite a bit. The guy I do repair work for has an original one and it just oozes cool/unique, plus the compressor is a great touch (literally!).

They made so many models, and cheaply at that, that unless you have a specific rare model you want (I almost bought a 1950's GA-75, this is a rare amp), it's not worth it to buy one. Most of the amps they made in the 60's are just like Fender where they cut and paste circuits while changing tube configurations, speaker configurations and not much else. If you want one, find yourself a $50 beater and bring it back to life (actually quite fun if it isn't wrecked inside) or get ~$300 for a GA-RVT type model.

[Phil_S]

I own unmodified (mostly)l GA20-RVT Minuteman and GA17-RVT Scout. These are nice amps, particularly the 17. They both have great reverb and tremolo. I would not bother to clone either. There are other/better things to build, IMO.

[bluefireamps]

I agree that there were soooo many different models and variations it's hard to say "Gibson Amp" and have that be meaningful on its own. They were never as standardized as Fender and Marshall. Some of them seem like science experiments. I envision the engineers having too many beers at lunch and then cooking up a circuit. Lastly, many of them just didn't sound very good. You kind of have to pick and choose. They did make some really good ones too.
Dave

[Milkmansound]

I really like the Gibson Falcon 19RVT (I think?) but they are very poorly constructed and finicky little things. Some sound awesome, some sound terrible.

I tried to work on one for a friend and it was pretty rough inside. A sea of ceramic caps, broken rivets, wires with no strain relief poking in and out of the chassis... the list goes on

If you do clone them - copy the circuit but not the layout. Thats my advice

[Scumback Speakers]

I was a fan of their GA-8 amp. Dual 6V6 in parallel single ended Class A. Only 9w clean, 18w cranked but great little Marshall tone practice amp (or small gig).

I used to make some bigger versions (quad 6V6) of this amp before I got out of the amp business.

A lot of their other amps were great, too.

[Jana]

Years ago, I rebuilt a GA20 (I think it was) for a friend. It had a pair of 6v6 cathode biased tubes. It was a great sounding little blues type amp. It had a nice growl when overdriven.

[Reeltarded]

They are lookers. I like the early lap amps through the mid-50's, but as players they never had their own mojo, and never were loud, nor dependable.

I have a few to look at.. I am not a hater, just saying.

The ones I like best are tiny Oahu amps with a Gibson logo. I have a couple bigger ones, but the little Ampegs do what they do WAAAAY better.

[jon]

I have a ga-100 in the works. I've found the schemaic to be questionable.

[husky]

Any ideas ? Just wondering loudly...

There are a lot out there just not advertised as such

[overtone]

Any ideas ? Just wondering loudly...

well, the originals are still not really unobtainium and like many other great amps, they are mostly off the radar and not discussed. So no buzz.

For a few years I was moving towards building a GA40. You don't see them over on this side of the pond.
But I am so slow, that by the time the holes were drilled, a '54 and a '55 found me anyway.

They sure can be can be a real mess inside. It is like going down into the sewers when you work on these, never know what you will find.
I agree with Reeltarded that they are lookers on the outside. "Her indoors" lets me keep the '54 in the living room.

This year I rolled my own grid-leak 6SJ7>6V6 GA5, basically a 5C1, a wonderful responsive little thing.
Best, tony

[teemuk]

Any ideas ? Just wondering loudly...

Maybe they just weren't all that good. Honestly, the only Gibson amps I really lust for are actually all-solid-state ones; either the Lab Series amps or the way more unknown Gold series amps from early 90's. Even the G-series solid-states from late 1960's seem more tempting than most of the tube stuff they released.

[renshen1957]

Any ideas ? Just wondering loudly...

Hi,

I do not profess to be a Gibson expert; here are my biased opinions and comments (mezzo forte)

Long version starts here:

Short Version is at the bottom

It wasn't that amps were unknown.

Gibson amps had their influences: AC30 Top Boost circuit is copy of 1954 Gibson GA-77 "Vanguard" circuit right down to a grounding typo as shown on the schematic). http://www.blueguitar.org/new/articles/ ... pboost.pdf

"The circuit is no longer point to point wired but the schematic is the same and even utilises the Gibson GA-77 2nd stage and tone network, still including the Bass pot grounding quirk."

Gibson had Tremolo circuits before Fender (but what feature in a Fender amp wasn't borrowed from existing guitar amps by other manufacturers) and Reverb earlier than Fender, even a "Stereo Amp."

Several factors come into play, corporate culture (or mindset), being in the right place and the right time (RPATRT), and short sightedness other wise known as stupidity.

Corporate Culture:

Gibson was and is a Stringed Instrument company. By contrast Fender in its early days was an Electric Instrument company. Gibson had a long history as an acoustic instrument manufacturer and its resources although divided among many different products were focused on acoustic instruments. Gibson had a reputation of producing high quality and professional quality instruments and were/are expensive more so know under its current owners (if no longer noted as being high quality).

Gibson built Guitars that were primarily Acoustic until a major new competitor captured a the lion's share of a rapidly growing "niche" market, although Gibson (and Rickenbacker) they produced some of the earliest electric guitars and ampliers. Gibson had amps 10 years before Leo's first offering.

RPATRT, or Gibson wasn't Starts production of a few Electric Guitars in the middle of the Great Depression. Chicago Musical Instrument Group purchases company in 1944 (in the middle of the war) takes over distribution and marketing. It isn't until Norlin takes over Gibby, that a factory is built near a major music center (Nashville) in 1975. Closest musical center is Chicago, IL while Kalamazoo, MI is Gibson's location.
Location-location-location Fender, Vox, and Marshall are nearby to their markets.

Stupidity (in retrospect), Gibson had a design by Lloyd Loar for an Electric amplified upright Bass in 1924 which the managers rejected. Loar, their major designer since the founder died quits over the matter. I might have sided with management on this one, but Gibson being an innovator would have changed the course of music and their place in amplifier history.

Corporate Culture/stupidity rears its myopic head:

The Gibson management showed Les Paul the door when he brought in the "Log" just as post war US Country and Western Musicians in California take up Electric Guitars and amplifiers to play to larger venues. Nature hates a vacuum. Location played a factor, too.

It's only after Leo's success with solid body Guitars that Gibson calls the Electric Broom Stick guy back.

Gibson advertising basically leaves the impression that the Electric Guitar amp was an after the sale add on. At least the scarce amount of advertising I've seen leaves that impression.

Gibson produced a variety (some say possibly too many) amps instead of concentrating on a fewer models. The circuits used a variety of tubes, which readily available at the time, but meant a gigging musician had to carry a greater variety of spares. two 5879, 6SQ7, 12AX7 tubes in the mid 50's preamp of a Les Paul Amp.

The earliest version of the GA 40 in 1954 had a tremolo which used a 6V6 tube!. This was years before the Tremulux and Vibrolux.

Other models had a variety of tubes employed, Fender by contrast had limited the Tube variety when the miniature tubes became available. Less tube inventories to stock, less money tied up.

Another factor, 1957 acquisition of Epiphone which had a successful amp line only complicated this issue; the Gibson Head office now had two lines of amps to promote and distribute. But did the management promote Epiphone amps any differently?

Unlike Leo Fender, a goodly number of the amps were as often known only by number instead of name.

AS to the Amps, one repairman person put it this way:

"They have the look, construction is top notch, cabinets are finger jointed redwood, chassis is thick chrome plated steel, components are top-mounted on circuit boards for easy access

The common downside is very small output transformers, poor choice of some component values and/or where they are located physically."

When Fender changed a design, the amp was typically given a new name – the Deluxe went from the Deluxe 5A3, to the Deluxe 5B3, to the Deluxe 5C3, etc. When Gibson changed a design, it went largely unnoticed. In fact, several variations will exist on one model without any notice or change in schematics.

Many Gibson amps are actually very similar in design to earlier Fenders circuits, but stayed that way. Fender on the other hand while slow to innovate was wasn't as slow to copy its competitors successful ideas.

Fender did interact with its customer base, at this time. Les Paul didn't beat the crap out of his GA-40 the way Dick Dale did his Fender Amps, which gave birth to the showman. (The story about the JBL by fender is pure BS, Standel used JBL's for years before Fender took notice)

Dale is making history in 1961-1962, but the heads at Gibson notice? A large venue of Dales (3,000 plus ball room, no PAs until the Beatles's fans screaming force the issue) require louder amplifiers.

The Les Paul amp 1957 (the second version of the Les Paul amp) featured a 12” speaker, two 6V6 power tubes supplying 14 watts, two channels, tremolo, and five controls; Voicing, Volume 1, Volume 2, and Depth and Frequency for the tremolo circuit, in essence as Fender Deluxe with Tremolo. By contrast, Fender had the Pro, the low power Twin, and Bassman at about 35Watts of clean power (advertised as 50W) (two 6L6 circuits with fixed bias) and in 1958 the High Power Twin circuit of four 6L6 tubes and 85 Watts. Buddy Holly and Tommy Allsup of The Crickets, and by Johnny Meeks of Gene Vincent’s Blue Caps had the High Power Twins (although as I recall the solo for Be Bop a Lula was recorded with a Standel. In fact all of Cliff Gallup's classic solos on Gene Vincent's records were done with Cliff's Gretsch Duo-Jet played through Grady Martin's Standel. From "Be-Bop-A-Lula" to "Crusin'" to "Double Talkin' Baby"). What did Gibson have? (In fairness, Ampeg's founder had Jazz blinders on and didn't adapt to the changing times, either.)

RPRT, Rock and Roll blossomed and went mainstream world wide as the result of the U.K. invasion in the 1960's by the Beatles, et al. High demand for R&R bands ramp up sales Amplifiers by the professional, garage band, and newly formed band both in the US and the UK

Not too many Gibson amps were available in Europe, and the earlier embargo of US imports and later exports with high Custom tariffs into the UK and made sure that Gibson amps weren't available in England.

However, Gibson didn't pursue the market overseas or at home at this time.

RPRT, management shortsightedness/corporate culture: Gibson didn't sponsor any Rock bands with equipment or seek major artists endorsements.

Stupidity, did Gibson attempt to make Gibson Amps or Guitars available to the Beatles? Demonstrates the mentality of management.

Another factor, Gibson wasn't owned by a Major Record Label who gave its major artists equipment to tour with as advertising.

Can anyone remember a rock band that toured with Gibson Amps or advertised one of its artist endorsements in the 1960s?

What did they do instead: Gibson advertises in 1967 Gibson solid state tough Amplifiers that "doesn't melt" with two pictured unnamed guitarists one that sort of looks like a cross between Keith Richards and Jeff beck and the other musician is in sun glasses to look cool (or hide his identity).
Makes you want to go out and buy a solid state Gibson amp, doesn't it?

(By contrast The Jeff Beck Group had Rickenbacker Transonics on their 1968 US tour. Steppenwolf used Transonics on stage and for TV shows in 1969 and Led Zeppelin used them on their first american tour 1969. Designed by Bob Rissi these were SS amps (which didn't melt either); LZ left these in the US at the end of the tour, because of cost to to ship these back to Engand, and probably because they were solid state, (Tom Petersson of Cheap Trick acquired and refurbished modified them). However Led Zep's reputation as a band in the US was initially established with these amps.)

Joe Perry is in an ad for a Gibson Amp, but everyone knows he never used it on stage during the major part of his career, his amps were Marshalls.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GIBSON-GOLDTONE ... RTM1062691


Enough of my ramblings.

Short version:

Gibson amps were for the most part well made (if the OTs were undersized), similar circuits to Fender on many of the simplier amps.

Gibson didn't have any major artists endorsments other than Les Paul up to 1961 associated with the amps, and no major artists afterwards until decades later.

Had SRV, Robben Ford, or Jimi Hendrix played a Gibson amplifier (if they had made a powerful enough amp), possibly there might be interest in building a copy. They didn't, so there isn't.

Best Regards,

Steve

PS Why don't TAG members copy/backward engineer Standel amps. Joe Maphis Merle Travis, Speedy West, Chet Atkins, Hank Thompson, Grady Martin, Hank Garland, Larry Collins, Ralph Mooney, Noel Boggs, Buddie Emmons, and Wes Montgomery (Solid State) played Standel amps and many more of the top session musicians of the 1950's and 1960's cut loads of records with the amps.

Same can be said of Jim Kelley amps (John Suhr is building a single channel version) in association with Jim Kelley.

[mumford]

I'm gathering parts for a skylark right now. The schem I'm using is basically a tweed champ with 220k plate resistors and 2k2 cathode resistors. I had one years ago, it was amazing for slight grind. I also had a gA8 discoverer that was pretty shrill. I won't be cloning that one.