Schematic & Layout Drawing?

[The Ballzz]

Hi Folks,
Well, I posted a while back about looking for schematic and/or layout drawing programs for my MAC and had limited success! Lo and behold, I just stumbled into a situation that not only requires a Pee-Cee windows machine, but also provided me with a brand new laptop with a bunch of the bells and whistles. I7 processor, 64-bit, (no touch screen), 6GB of RAM & 8.1 OS. I plan to rarely use it online except to required and known sites when needed. Going to try to keep it as clean and virus free as possible.

So now I'm looking for the best software for schematics/layouts that I can get without breaking the bank and that won't involve questionable "FREE" downloads. Let's face it, nothing good is ever truly "FREE"!

This Windows thing is a whole new universe for me and any/all hints would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Gene

[JazzGuitarGimp]

The only ones I know of are truly EXPENSIVE. But I have a feeling someone will chime-in with some good suggestions.

Ciao,
Lou

[Theashe]

I use PSpice (specifically Capture) for drawing schematics, although you do need to go find tube symbols and models from Duncan Amps because they aren't in the student version download. Be aware that the student version is limited to something like 100 components per sheet - but you can break the schematic up into multiple sheets.
http://www.engr.uky.edu/~cathey/pspice061301.html
http://www.duncanamps.com/spicevalvest.html
http://www.duncanamps.com/spicevalvesp.html
http://www.duncanamps.com/spicevalvesr.html

I've heard great things about LTSpice, and I think the schematics look a little neater:
http://www.linear.com/designtools/software/
http://www.duncanamps.com/technical/ltspice.html

For power supplies, you can use Duncan's PSU Designer II.
http://www.duncanamps.com/psud2/index.html

I use DIY Layout Creator for planning the layout of components on turrets.
https://code.google.com/p/diy-layout-creator/

[jazbo8]

I use DIY Layout Creator for planning the layout of components on turrets.
https://code.google.com/p/diy-layout-creator/

I don' think the OP wants to run simulations AND he does not want "freebie" apps.

In which case, he should take a look at Visio, sluckey has created many great looking schematics and layouts with it.

[Garthhog]

For schematics, go with LTSpice (FREE!). you can use it to simulate circuits before committing solder to leads... It can save you time by reducing the amount of circuit noodling as well as allow you to try out new circuit ideas before committing money to build that circuit.

For Layouts I use Sketchup and build everything in 3D before building in aluminum. It works great for components and hardware, not so much for wiring. The license was about $600. Ideally I would use PTC Creo, but that license is WAY (add a zero + about $400) more than $600.

[davent]

I use free ExpressPCB for drawing schematics and doing PCB layouts. All the tube components you need can be found at the the Hoffman amp forum.

For eyelet board layout i print out an eyelet board blank i've drawn with a CAD program and then old school pencil and erasure a layout. Transfer the final layout back to the CAD program to print out the drill template.

ExpressPCB has a butt ugly font and no colours so if i feel a need to dress up the schematic i take it to Inkscape and doll it up there.

ExpressPCB and Inkscape are free and i found very intuitive.

[IMG:804:475]http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc30 ... eamp-1.jpg[/img]

[Phil_S]

I've been watching this one with some interest, not in the product(s) but for what is said.

First let me say, there is everything right about asking the question. The research has to start somewhere.

The OP says, basically, price is not an object (within reason). He wants first rate functionality.

Software can be very expensive. It isn't always what it's cracked up to be. My experience says that price and quality don't always equate.

I'm thinking about my experience with accounting software. I think it's apropos. In the late '90's I was involved in the acquisition of an enterprise platform that really did everything in the way of database needs. This included a very robust accounting module, maybe the "best" I've ever seen...in quotes because "best" is a relative thing. That database had a 7-figure price tag with all the implementation fees. I'd say the accounting module accounted for 15% and the payroll module for another 15%. I don't recall all the specifics. What I discovered as time elapsed, was that I knew of another product, not quite as robust, that was in all important respects functionally equivalent. We were small enough that robust didn't count for as much as we all thought it did. My retrospective on that project remains that we needed the other 70% of the product and if that was driving the acquisition, it was still a great choice. If I had only needed the 30% for accounting and payroll, I'd have chosen the other product, at about 20% of the cost. Actually, I continue to feel that no one would have ever noticed if I had used the other accounting and payroll software in place of what we bought.

I believe user satisfaction is directly related to the appropriateness of the software selection and it's setup. We've just seen a slightly less than elegant suggestion for freeware that works well. I think the important question is whether you get that much more with paid-for software, in respect of the level of the user and the intended use of the software.

Don't over buy. You can end up smacking a carpet tack with a sledge hammer. It gets the job done, but do you really need all that overhead? The right tool for the job is a tack hammer. There's a reason for that. Buy the right tool! To do that, you've got to list features, specifications, and functionality for the intended use so you can weigh the options intelligently.

I hope you find what you are looking for!

[sluckey]

I use free ExpressPCB for drawing schematics

That's the best looking Express schematic I've ever seen. I'm guessing ExpressPCB is different from ExpressSCH???

[davidjon_99]

I've been watching this one with some interest, not in the product(s) but for what is said.

First let me say, there is everything right about asking the question. The research has to start somewhere.

The OP says, basically, price is not an object (within reason). He wants first rate functionality.

Software can be very expensive. It isn't always what it's cracked up to be. My experience says that price and quality don't always equate.

I'm thinking about my experience with accounting software. I think it's apropos. In the late '90's I was involved in the acquisition of an enterprise platform that really did everything in the way of database needs. This included a very robust accounting module, maybe the "best" I've ever seen...in quotes because "best" is a relative thing. That database had a 7-figure price tag with all the implementation fees. I'd say the accounting module accounted for 15% and the payroll module for another 15%. I don't recall all the specifics. What I discovered as time elapsed, was that I knew of another product, not quite as robust, that was in all important respects functionally equivalent. We were small enough that robust didn't count for as much as we all thought it did. My retrospective on that project remains that we needed the other 70% of the product and if that was driving the acquisition, it was still a great choice. If I had only needed the 30% for accounting and payroll, I'd have chosen the other product, at about 20% of the cost. Actually, I continue to feel that no one would have ever noticed if I had used the other accounting and payroll software in place of what we bought.

I believe user satisfaction is directly related to the appropriateness of the software selection and it's setup. We've just seen a slightly less than elegant suggestion for freeware that works well. I think the important question is whether you get that much more with paid-for software, in respect of the level of the user and the intended use of the software.

Don't over buy. You can end up smacking a carpet tack with a sledge hammer. It gets the job done, but do you really need all that overhead? The right tool for the job is a tack hammer. There's a reason for that. Buy the right tool! To do that, you've got to list features, specifications, and functionality for the intended use so you can weigh the options intelligently.

I hope you find what you are looking for!

Very well said. The only thing I would add is to try before you buy. Many products let you try them out before you purchase them. Be leery of the ones that don't. It doesn't mean they are bad if they don't let you try them, but it does make it a bit harder to really flesh out the details of how it performs for your needs.

[JazzGuitarGimp]

I don't recall if I participated in your earlier discussion about schematic and layout software for the Mac platform: I keep an eye out for both schematic and pcb layout software that run natively on Mac. So far, I haven't found anything that looks appealing. I really think Apple takes pride in being the the leader in artsy fartsy computing, and has no real interest in being held in high esteem in scientific circles.

But we can have the best of both worlds: In early 2009, I bought a new Mac Mini which I used up until a few months ago to run Windows XP as a virtual client alongside the Mac OS. All of my CAD tools run on Windows, so this seemed like the obvious choice. I'd be lying if said there hasn't been the occasional hiccup along the way, but by and large, I have very much enjoyed being able to do my work on the Mac.

A few months ago, I "upgraded" my Mac to a used early 2008 Mac Pro, 8-core 3.2GHz with 16GB of RAM, two 2TB hard drives, and a 240GB SSD - a good friend was selling it and I got it for a song ($750). Doing my CAD work on the SSD is pretty amazing - it has a very fast response time when doing screen repaints with very dense, multi-layer pc board layouts.

[Theashe]

I use DIY Layout Creator for planning the layout of components on turrets.
https://code.google.com/p/diy-layout-creator/

I don' think the OP wants to run simulations AND he does not want "freebie" apps.

In which case, he should take a look at Visio, sluckey has created many great looking schematics and layouts with it.

You don't need to run simulations with Spice or Capture. You can just build schematics. I find it tidy, and quick to work with since it has lots of hotkeys that make component manipulation easy.

As for DIY Layout Creator, sure, it's not a professional program, but it's a free application that's well known in the community, at least on other forums. In some cases, paranoia around free applications is certainly deserved. I don't think this is one of those cases.

[JMFahey]

I find the original idea noble, but there is a side aspect to it.

The OP says "I don't trust freebies .... I am ready to pay ... I want the best ...." coupled to what (with due respect) amounts to "I have not much clue about Windows" .

1) what he will eventually find to be the best may be very different to what we think and suggest

2) software, specially good/pro quality is complex and has a definite "learning curve" which might even be very steep or too long.

3) I suggest the OP to download and try many of the Free/Limited suggestions here, which to boot have already been *used* by those who recomment them, and after he's tried his hand at a few he will know better what he needs.

Personally I'd start with Express Sch (part of Express PCB) which is quite useful and intuitive, learning curve is short, and try my hand at some 2D CAD package for layouts, use of colour, smooth redimensioning and editing and "universal" output format, be it one of the classic CAD ones (DXF, DWG, etc.) which can be shared and easily opened by others and in all cases easily converted to common graphic (gif , png , jpg) formats to include in a Forum ; or even PDF for universal distribution.

"Crawl before you walk and walk before you run"

It would be very annoying to find in, say, 6 months or a Year that you bought a very good, quite expensive package, and then see you actually prefer another good expensive one.
As different as Mac is from Windoze.

And "free" software results can be very good as seen above.

Do you like, say, sharp colorful Ceriatone layouts?
They can be easily made with any 2D CAD package.

Free/Student/Low cost

[vibratoking]

Hi Folks,
... I plan to rarely use it online except to required and known sites when needed. Going to try to keep it as clean and virus free as possible.

So now I'm looking for the best software for schematics/layouts that I can get without breaking the bank and that won't involve questionable "FREE" downloads. Let's face it, nothing good is ever truly "FREE"!

This Windows thing is a whole new universe for me and any/all hints would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Gene

Your rarely use it online comment shows your noob attitude toward Windows. You can use it...just protect it.

You say you want the best schematic/layout software without breaking the bank.

What is the bank?

BTW, schematic/layout means something very different here than it does to most of the technical world. A schematic, in software terms, is more than a pretty picture. It can be tied to simulators and is almost always tied to a PCB layout function. The term layout differs greatly on TAG than almost everywhere else. Layouts on TAG are nothing more than pretty pictures and text. There is no data tying the schematic and layout and possibly simulator together. The full concept of schematics/layouts/simulators is an integrated database that shares information for electrical rules, design rules, connectivity, simulation, etc...It allows the user to make a change in one function that is passed to all of the others in order to increase efficiency and accuracy.

You say you want schematic/layout software, but you really don't. You want something much less according to the meaning of those terms here at TAG.

The cost of a 'real' package varies quite a lot, but is on the order of $20K or $30k.

[Aurora]

ExpressSCH and ExpressPCB is a package. I think it can be downloaded from Hoffman, or there is a link there.
It is an easy package for simple schematics and pcb's, - and it does have basic tube symbols, which very few of the pro packages have, - if any.
Symbols can be created in all of them, but that is a rather tedious task.
Pro packages also have a very steep and high entry treshold, and be prepared to pay from a few thou's and upwards....
An overview of medium levels is here...
http://pcbshopper.com/cad/

[Gibsonman63]

Mr. Fahey makes some good points. I use 3D modeling software at work. The learning curve is extremely steep, weeks of training, then a couple of months of struggling to become productive.

Personally, when I find time to actally design something (tube amp related), I will use Visio. There is enough power there to draw to scale and there are lots of symbols that people have already created. It is easy to lose sight of the goal, which is to create schematics and layouts. You could spend longer learning a new program that it takes to creat a project.