Dumb Question, Mine Often Are?

[The Ballzz]

Hi Folks,

Regarding splitting of the signal from a guitar either by a "Y" cable or by jumpering a two channel amp, such as a 4 hole Marshall or Tweed 5E3 Deluxe. I realize that using the "Y" cable, there is an approximate loss of 3db. In the case of jumpering from the "low" input of the amp while the guitar is plugged into the "high" input, I'm assuming that the loss (while still present) is somewhat different, given the two 68k resistors that end up in series between the two jacks, than a straight "Y" before the "high" input.

Now, while I'm well aware that in the universe, there is "no free lunch" I'm wondering if there is any way to derive a usable signal tap from the guitar while eliminating or at least minimizing the signal loss? I would like to accomplish this without introducing any sort of "recovery" circuitry/amplification into the path from the guitar to the first stage of the preamp. I'm trying to avoid compromising that magic push/pull, symbiotic relationship of magnetic pickups and the first preamp tube.

It would seem (to this moron) that possibly a transformer may be utilized to take an absolutely minimal signal and then amplify that to a usable level? Or am I simply "piddlin' in the wind" in search of the elusive perpetual motion machine?

Thanks,
Gene

[Leo_Gnardo]

Regarding splitting of the signal from a guitar either by a "Y" cable or by jumpering a two channel amp, such as a 4 hole Marshall or Tweed 5E3 Deluxe. I realize that using the "Y" cable, there is an approximate loss of 3db.

No.... there's a little loss because, assuming 1 Mohm loading resistor on each channel, you'll now be loading the guitar output with half a megohm. Overall signal level won't drop. You may notice a loss of high frequencies though, just a dab less bright.

In the case of jumpering from the "low" input of the amp while the guitar is plugged into the "high" input, I'm assuming that the loss (while still present) is somewhat different, given the two 68k resistors that end up in series between the two jacks, than a straight "Y" before the "high" input.

Kee-rect, now there's your loss. Let's say you plug guitar into the bright channel hi gain, and extract it from the lo input, send that to the "fat" channel. So what if you lose a little high end there, you have plenty in the bright channel. And not likely you'll be dialing up exactly the same gain in each channel, besides with the loss you can make up for it by a fraction of a turn of the volume knob.

Now, while I'm well aware that in the universe, there is "no free lunch" I'm wondering if there is any way to derive a usable signal tap from the guitar while eliminating or at least minimizing the signal loss? I would like to accomplish this without introducing any sort of "recovery" circuitry/amplification into the path from the guitar to the first stage of the preamp. I'm trying to avoid compromising that magic push/pull, symbiotic relationship of magnetic pickups and the first preamp tube.

It would seem (to this moron) that possibly a transformer may be utilized to take an absolutely minimal signal and then amplify that to a usable level? Or am I simply "piddlin' in the wind" in search of the elusive perpetual motion machine?

Thanks,
Gene

Y in or jumper, no need to overthink it. Dial & smile. It's worked for a zillion other guitarists, it'll work for you.

One other choice, something I've done mostly in the 80-90's, a single input jack, 1M load resistor, pair of stopper resistors 68K or your choice going to the grids of 2 input triodes bright & fat. Best of all worlds, you don't load the guitar any worse than usual. Heck you could even increase the load R value & get yet brighter tone. No transformers, no scissors nor glue. And with a single input jack you eliminate the musical question "how do I do this right, this way or that way?" It's unambiguous. And as close to a free lunch as you'll ever get.

[The Ballzz]

Mr. Gnardo,
First, thank you for the thoughtful reply and your thoughts generally echo what I had assumed, however, it's not just channel jumping that I'm endeavoring to accomplish.

Having just finished a 5E3 Deluxe build, I have found some/many of my "holy grail" tones with this fantastic little amp, generally through just the bright channel. I tried it cranked and was amazed, but was even more floored upon discovering that turning the volume level "DOWN" a little bit seems to open up the variety of sounds even more.

The only thing needed to make this amp perfect for my use is a way to add a little reverb and or delay and I wanted to add this in the "loop" created by channel jumpering. The unfortunate consequence is that taking just that little bit of gain/signal away darkens the tone and response in a way that isn't able to be made up by volume increase on either the guitar or the amp. This loss is "just enough" to take away the real magic of the feedback and clarity available in this amp.

I'm also trying to avoid putting any kind of solid state, foot/stomp/pedal/thingie between the guitar and the amp, as this destroys that glorious push/pull, symbiotic relationship of magnetic pickups to the input tube.

I'm a weird guy and my "no picks allowed" playing style incorporates having everything dialed to the edge of and even into almost uncontrollable feedback and playing with an extremely light touch that often is little more than just touching/wiping a string to "excite" it into that wonderful bliss of full blown harmonic goodness! This sort of playing provides amazing sustain and tone, however, if I get sloppy and accidentally "dig into" a note, it can nearly kill small pets and children, or at least wake the audience up!

It's a very fine line I tread between "just enough" to be perfect and "if I had just a tiny bit more" it would be perfect. It's all in the subtleties!

And, FWIW, this little amp appears to cover most, if not all the ground I've tried to cover with various Marshall and Fender amps over my 40+ years of playing! Plugging in a humbuckered Les Paul sounds like a Les Paul should, a Strat sounds like a Strat and a P90 guitar sounds like a P90 guitar. Really an amazing little design.

Hmmmm.....?
Thanks Again,
Gene

[Leo_Gnardo]

I hears ya, and no picks here neither. Although the following suggestion eliminates the easy "grab n go, plug n play" aspect, it might be better to take a "slave out" off the speaker line, apply that to reverb/delay and bring the "space" out into another amp entirely. Maybe with 2 speakers, one to the left and another to the right of your new honey. Heck you could use stereo time delay fx and stereo amp whether tube or (ulp!) solid snake. That's the way some pros do it. And leaves your original amp tone as-is.

[The Ballzz]

Been There Done That!
Here's my wet/dry rig! Works great and have trimmed down to a smaller dry amp and a 4x10 Marshall 1965B. Just trying to still have fun with a little grab n go.

Thanx Again,
Gene

[Leo_Gnardo]

Here's my wet/dry rig!

Luv that gnarly cab!

Well I'm all outta ideas on the Deluxe. As you know, simplicity yields clarity. I'm afraid any mucking around with it will change the tone & response to something less that it is. Anybody else got some ideas? I'll sit in the peanut gallery, observe & maybe learn something.

[The Ballzz]

Here's my wet/dry rig!

Luv that gnarly cab!

Well I'm all outta ideas on the Deluxe. As you know, simplicity yields clarity. I'm afraid any mucking around with it will change the tone & response to something less that it is. Anybody else got some ideas? I'll sit in the peanut gallery, observe & maybe learn something.

I've had that cab since it looked new in 74-ish, it's a 72! Got another with no tolex that is a 69 with metal handles, pr-rolas, etc. Love 'em both to death! They're guaranteed to make any amp sound it's best!

I've had some suggest a "spluffer" and/or units like this:

http://lehle.com/EN/Lehle-P-Split-II

or this:

http://www.tonebone.com/twincity.php

but I'm not sure I believe the hype as well as being pretty spendy!

Thanx & I'll Keep Ya Posted,
Gene

[Leo_Gnardo]

Kool kabs indeed. I've been looking out for a 2x10 or 4x10, got a couple old Rola-Celestions that need exercise.

Craig Anderton's "spluffer", always looked like a good idea. If you can build a tweed Deluxe you can build one of those. Of course use an IC socket so you can try this n that, get your ears happy.

For one crustomer I built a copy of an MXR Microamp, sent the output into 5 little Mouser transformers so he could send or mute into his pile 'o amps. Sounded perfectly good both to him & me but who's to say anyone else. Well, his audience was satisfied too, nobody complained about lack of bandwidth, they were too busy dancing. If you're of a mind to experiment with cheap trans, I think they were model TL018. They may claim rolloff below 300 Hz, but that's at full power. At lower levels we didn't notice any lack of bass, and his system never pushed 'em hard, very satisfactory for dirt cheap. Feeling spendy, of course you can get some Dean Jensens, go totally hi fi.

[norburybrook]

Here's my wet/dry rig!

Luv that gnarly cab!

Well I'm all outta ideas on the Deluxe. As you know, simplicity yields clarity. I'm afraid any mucking around with it will change the tone & response to something less that it is. Anybody else got some ideas? I'll sit in the peanut gallery, observe & maybe learn something.

I've had that cab since it looked new in 74-ish, it's a 72! Got another with no tolex that is a 69 with metal handles, pr-rolas, etc. Love 'em both to death! They're guaranteed to make any amp sound it's best!

I've had some suggest a "spluffer" and/or units like this:

http://lehle.com/EN/Lehle-P-Split-II

or this:

http://www.tonebone.com/twincity.php

but I'm not sure I believe the hype as well as being pretty spendy!

Thanx & I'll Keep Ya Posted,
Gene

Gene,

I've got the angled version of that cab and you're right, I've never plugged an amp into it that doesn't sound great.

I've used Radial products for a while and they're first class, excellent build quality and most of all sound quality so I'd have no reservations recommending the Radial switcher.

I have no affiliation with the company by the way.



Marcus

[sliberty]

That Tonebone box looks like a good solution. Buffering your split signal is exactly what you need, and their stuff is generally really good. For what they are providing $159 doesn't sound too bad, but on the other hand, a Y cable and a pair of simple clean boosts (AMZ MOSFET Boosters for example) might just get you to a "good enough" place for a lot less. Not as convenient though.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I've used Radial products for a while and they're first class, excellent build quality and most of all sound quality so I'd have no reservations recommending the Radial switcher.

Radial transformer isolated switchbox's I've run across work & sound fine. If you get any, recommend extra glue to hold the transformer(s) to the circus board. Drop it once, transformers pop off, breaking their leads. Also, their little tran's look an awful lot like Mousers. Could they be?

[The Ballzz]

Great Stuff Folks!
Given that I don't need all the bells/whistles (or the added size) of the Radial unit, it would seem fairly simple to buy some components and build one to suit my limited needs. That is, of course, if I can find a schematic, along with some sort of specs detailing what it actually accomplishes. I just missed the MF 20% off promotion, oh well!
Onwards I Goes,
Gene

[Firestorm]

I'm late to the party, and I'm an all picks guy (except acoustics) so I'm in the minority, but I think that the 5E3 circuit might not be the best place to do what you want. I'm frequently wrong though, so have at it.

[RWood]

Anyone tried one of the Mojo zero loss loops for doing this?
A customer brought one to me for 1987 clone installation but I didn't have a decent speaker cab to give it a good listen and he took it right away.
It did however scope a very clean 10K sine wave into a dummy load.

[Reeltarded]

http://www.compasspointstudios.com/lucas/dec/dec.html