Benson Monarch

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BobL
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Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:17 pm

Re: Benson Monarch

Post by BobL »

turbofeedus wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:53 pm Why that is necessary for the tube to not self-destruct is a good question for which to seek an answer :)
BobL wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:15 pm As I understand it, I can keep my current heater wiring all tube based without causing actual problems - in this chassis, I just don't think I have the physical space for the bridge rectifier. I'm curious what the advantages might be to DC filaments on the preamp tubes?
Don't think of heaters as being "tube based" or "solid state based", the real distinction here is whether the heaters are being rectified into direct current(DC) or staying alternating current(AC), as is would be straight from the secondary of the power transformer. Theoretically rectifying the heaters to DC can reduce noise and heater hum in the amp. This can be very useful for high gain amps (Soldano is a famous user of DC heaters) where that hum induced on an early preamp stage would be amplified several times over cascading gain stages. But, AC heaters have been used for tube preamps for nearly a century without much fuss. For an amp like the monarch, with only a couple preamp stages, DC heaters seems like overkill.
Yeah, I realized that this was incorrect, and that the heater voltage is just coming off of the PT.
turbofeedus wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:53 pm Correct, 12.4W dissipation for a 14W tube. The interesting bit here is that setting the bias for 100% dissipation is the boutique standard for cathode bias, and in fact even higher in some cases. People really like to run 6V6 hot.
I'd recommend having a look at other 6V6 designs and seeing what they're doing for screen and cathode resistors. There are ways to calculate (or at least ballpark) those things before the fact, but I think that's a journey for another project.
The other 6V6 projects I have built, a Princeton Reverb and the 6G3 I'm tearing apart for this project don't appear to have any sort of cathode resistors... unless I'm misunderstanding something.
turbofeedus
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Re: Benson Monarch

Post by turbofeedus »

BobL wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:50 pm The other 6V6 projects I have built, a Princeton Reverb and the 6G3 I'm tearing apart for this project don't appear to have any sort of cathode resistors... unless I'm misunderstanding something.
6V6 is a common choice for either cathode or fixed bias, depending on how much output wattage you want/need. A tube in cathode bias will deliver about half the plate dissipation in output wattage.
Keep in mind, the choice between cathode and fixed bias wasn't always a tonal decision like it is today. In the past, cathode bias was just simpler, cheaper, less parts, easier to swap tubes, etc. If you didn't need to maximize the output power, or were trying to manufacture to meet a certain price point, it was the preferred option. Now we have huge PAs and attenuators, so output power usually comes second to any sonic character choices.
BobL
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:17 pm

Re: Benson Monarch

Post by BobL »

turbofeedus wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:04 pm
BobL wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:50 pm The other 6V6 projects I have built, a Princeton Reverb and the 6G3 I'm tearing apart for this project don't appear to have any sort of cathode resistors... unless I'm misunderstanding something.
6V6 is a common choice for either cathode or fixed bias, depending on how much output wattage you want/need. A tube in cathode bias will deliver about half the plate dissipation in output wattage.
Keep in mind, the choice between cathode and fixed bias wasn't always a tonal decision like it is today. In the past, cathode bias was just simpler, cheaper, less parts, easier to swap tubes, etc. If you didn't need to maximize the output power, or were trying to manufacture to meet a certain price point, it was the preferred option. Now we have huge PAs and attenuators, so output power usually comes second to any sonic character choices.
Yeah, that makes sense.

Kind of leads me into my next question - my PT is putting out more power than what is in this schematic, and my impression is that this would add some gain and volume, and wondering how to best handle that.

Here is the datasheet:
http://www.classictone.net/40-18028.pdf

With a 5U4GB, I was getting ~340v off of it, though it was suggested I could use a 5Y3 to get a bigger drop. I'm wondering what else might be an option if the gain seems too high - in your article about the paraphase inverter, I saw a suggestion that removing the cathode bypass cap will reduce gain. Maybe that'd be a good place to start?

In my (limited) learning about tubes, I was learning how AC current to the grids is how your guitar signal is amplified, as the ac signal on the grid allows electrons to pass to the anode at a higher rate. I think I understand this concept, and that more electrons = more amplification, so I'm wondering if reducing voltage to the grids would reduce amplification, and thereby gain...

Having an impact on the gain seems, to me, to be one of (or a combination of) three options:
1. Reduce the level of the signal - which based on Hi/Lo input amps, would mean either adding an input with lower impedence by omitting (or reducing?) the grid leak resistor, or removing/reducing the value of that resistor on the single input.
2. Reduce the anode current... I'm not sure how this would be done. Increase the value of the load resistor, allowing less of the B+ voltage through, perhaps?
3. Reduce the available electrons at the cathode... this is what removing (reducing?) the cathode bypass cap would do.

Am I understanding those options correctly? I'm not sure if I have #2 backwards, if I have something wrong in general, and what the best option usually would be when trying to reduce overall gain in a circuit...
Aaron
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Re: Benson Monarch

Post by Aaron »

I had the amp back again to double check the power supply, and I did trace it wrong. The 10k is from the B node, not the A node as on the schematic.
Pic of the pre amp.

Aaron
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BobL
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Re: Benson Monarch

Post by BobL »

Aaron wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:17 am I had the amp back again to double check the power supply, and I did trace it wrong. The 10k is from the B node, not the A node as on the schematic.
Pic of the pre amp.

Aaron
This, correct?
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roberto
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Re: Benson Monarch

Post by roberto »

Nice design: a 110k 2k2 stage with half the resistor values on the first stage to increase low order harmonics, and a drastic split load on the second that is like having a volume pot at 5 but with way more bandwidth (and a bit more noise from the psu node), with a very low loss between first two stages.
Aaron
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Re: Benson Monarch

Post by Aaron »

BobL wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:31 pm This, correct?
Hi Bob,

Yes, that is correct.

Aaron
BobL
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Re: Benson Monarch

Post by BobL »

Got my board based build up and running - really nice sounding circuit! Has a really nice natural compression when clean - I find that most amps clean I need some sort of low drive over them to compress a little and keep them from being too punchy and spikey, but I think this would do great on its own. I think I'll move the input down to the end, but otherwise pretty happy with it.

Image

Anyone know the appropriate reverb tank to use with this circuit? Seems like it should be pretty high impedance...
turbofeedus
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Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:37 am

Re: Benson Monarch

Post by turbofeedus »

Looks good BobL. Seems like a short spring tank, just going by pics on reverb ads. Not sure the exact model though.
BobL
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Re: Benson Monarch

Post by BobL »

turbofeedus wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:50 am Looks good BobL. Seems like a short spring tank, just going by pics on reverb ads. Not sure the exact model though.
Yeah, I ordered the highest impedance 3 spring short tank from Mod, and I'll see how it does.
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chopstuck
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Re: Benson Monarch

Post by chopstuck »

I decided to try one of these too. Just for fun. I tore up an old Z-28 clone made of Hammond organ parts and we are in process.
Heavens, an unused PI input !
unknowntome
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:40 am

Re: Benson Monarch

Post by unknowntome »

Hello! I was wondering whether anyone had a bill of materials/parts list handy? thinking about giving this a go. cheers
dways
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Location: Hamburg/Germany

Re: Benson Monarch

Post by dways »

Aaron wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:18 am
BobL wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:31 pm This, correct?
Hi Bob,

Yes, that is correct.

Aaron
Hi Aaron,

Thanks for sharing all the info. Same to Chris himself and all the others. I totally dig this forum.

I wonder about the trannies, don't know which are the right ones. The schematic voltage readings show 278V for the PT secondaries. That is like the Classictone 40-18085 (I am in Europe and need the 230/240 primaries), and in combination with a 5AR4 rectifier the diagram mentions a plate voltage of 326VDC which also fits to the readings in your Monarch schematic (+/- tolerance). And what is about the primary impedance of the OT? 8.5k? So basically like the ones for a 15W Princeton? Which ones have you seen or do you use? Thanks a lot in advance.

Cheers, Dan.
BobL
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Re: Benson Monarch

Post by BobL »

dways wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:03 pm
Aaron wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:18 am
BobL wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:31 pm This, correct?
Hi Bob,

Yes, that is correct.

Aaron
Hi Aaron,

Thanks for sharing all the info. Same to Chris himself and all the others. I totally dig this forum.

I wonder about the trannies, don't know which are the right ones. The schematic voltage readings show 278V for the PT secondaries. That is like the Classictone 40-18085 (I am in Europe and need the 230/240 primaries), and in combination with a 5AR4 rectifier the diagram mentions a plate voltage of 326VDC which also fits to the readings in your Monarch schematic (+/- tolerance). And what is about the primary impedance of the OT? 8.5k? So basically like the ones for a 15W Princeton? Which ones have you seen or do you use? Thanks a lot in advance.

Cheers, Dan.
I went with the transformers I had already gotten to build the 6G3 - Classictone 40-18028 PT and 40-18090 OT, which are a bit overpowered vs what was here, but worked well. I used a 5Y3 (non GT) on the 300V leads from the PT and I was nailing voltages vs the schematic pretty dang close. The amp is maybe a little on the dirty side, but sounds really nice...
Aaron
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Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:07 pm

Re: Benson Monarch

Post by Aaron »

Hi Dan,

Power transformer was a Mercury Magnets Tweed Deluxe
Output was Classictone? Tweed Deluxe.

Thanks,
Aaron
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