Panasonic ECW/ECQ capacitors

[zenit55]

New guy here and I have a question (maybe a naive one)

I came across some panasonic ECQ series capacitors. They are rather small and are cheap at electronics suppliers such as mouser and arrow. Is there any particular reason they are not very much used in tube amps these days (and not really sold at tube amp suppliers)? The 0.047uf 630v ECQ is about 1/5th size of an orange drop (rated at 600v) and specs seem very similar to me.

Are these a legit option for coupling caps or am I missing something here?

Also, kind of unrelated: is there any reason why radial electrolytic caps aren't used much? It seems that they would fit better in some spots, especially when replacing an old cap can. They also come in smaller sizes for same if/volt rating (made in japan NIC electrolytic caps).

[pompeiisneaks]

Basically you're delving into the esoteric world of amp capacitor dielectrics. It is a heavily debated topic of which dielectrics sound 'best' in what type of amp. Since it's a sound difference, you fall into three camps: 1. I can't ever tell the difference between caps and 2. there is a very clear difference in caps and x is better than y or 3. I can hear a difference but I'm not convinced which is better

I tend to fall between 1 and 3.

This is purely an opinion area, as there can be no easy proof on what a person 'hears' it's opinion only so far. I've yet to see any scientific data that 'proves' on thing or another. Nobody has ever spent the astronomical cost of setting up double blind tests with a significantly large listening audience to get a consensus. And the devices that can be used to detect electrical differences have often been stated to be not insightful enough to prove or disprove it either, but I'm not an expert on that area.

My opinion follows.

I think specific types of polypropylene or polystyrene or other types of dielectric and/or brands of capacitor do impart some subtle difference. I have hearing loss, maybe that's why it seems subtle to me. I might be tricking myself.

Basically the best test and way to learn is to try a few and see.

So far on multiple amp builds I've preferred the differernt orange drop types, myself, even on a sluckey's dual marshall build I did recently with the exception of the .068uF caps which they don't make any of so I got some that were of that value, I think they ended up being CDE brand.

I've used the cheaper xicon brand ones from hoffman amps and thought the amp sounded great, warm etc, and still feel that like 99% of the 'tone' people seek in tube amps is a combination of the tubes themselves and the circuit topology and a lot less the specific components, but you'll get a massive debate disagreeing with me on it, and basically I'm right, and they're right, because you can't easily prove who is wrong

~Phil

[pompeiisneaks]

Oh one additional note, I think there's another super important area people often forget to think about.

My brother worked in car audio and home audio installation for a long time, his company sold some pretty expensive cables, power supplies, etc that were all marketed as vastly improving the audio signal quality.

They marked the prices of these things up majestically to the point that they were probably 500% margins.

"A fool and their money are easily parted" as the saying goes.

so be wary of snake oil

Also there were some significantly proven tests at one point that showed like 'super tasters' that have extremely sensitive palates for food etc, most people can't taste or at least define the many subtleties of food.

This is apparently true of hearing as well. A very large percentage of human hearing falls into a specific range, but a super small subset has a significantly improved hearing range, and this might account for some of the ability to discern these subtle differences. i.e. what may seem unappealing to those people is inaudible to the vast majority

~Phil

[zenit55]

Thank you for the response!!

I am not worried about sound as much as the reliability of these in a circuit. Sound wise, I always thought that the circuit design and speaker/cab is the thing that's most important to the sound.

I was more concerned about whether there is any reason to not use these smaller, more modern parts of the same value in the older tube circuits (heat, reliability, drift, lifetime of components concern when run in an old circuit like a tube amp). I actually prefer these smaller more modern parts because they are easier to work with and fit into ptp circuit (for me at least).

Oh and I rather not pay $5 for a cap like some sites charge.

[Phil_S]

Good answers from others. FWIW (not much) I have a fairly bland opinion.

I'm doubtful I can hear the difference. Certainly, at performance volume, there is so much else happening, I'm doubtful it makes much difference to anyone in the room. In a quiet or controlled environment like a studio, you might detect some difference if your hearing is very good. You might generally detect some subtle differences, however, as noted, this is mostly subjective.

I don't think there is anything wrong with buying the inexpensive stuff as long as it otherwise meets the spec. You might prefer the larger components at times simply because they might be easier to use. For example, OD caps generally have nice thick leads that stay where you put them and that have a longer reach. This might serve a particular need in the context of a build. Those small ones might have thin leads that are harder to handle and that are too easy to move around.

As for radial electrolytic caps, they are functionally the same as axial caps. You don't see them much in hand built guitar amps because the layout is simply easier with axial caps. I've seen pictures of builds with radial caps clamped or stuck to the side or floor of the chassis and deployed very well. Radial tends to cost less than axial.

[martin manning]

No reason not to use them, IMO. They are available in metalized polyester and polypropylene, which is not quite the same construction as film and foil in Orange Drop capacitors, but they are using the same dielectrics. I'm sure they will perform well.

[xtian]

My favorite ODS I've built so far (out of four) uses Panasonic caps like the ones you show. Is it because of the caps? Hard to know! Whatever combination of transformers, components and luck, this one ODS has magic properties.

[Gaz]

Those Panasonic caps are more than okay, and many people do use them for tube amps. It's not that they are cheap, it's more that they are not overpriced

[maxkracht]

My assumption is a lot of the smaller, newer, and less expensive components are less expensive from volume sales, not because they are any worse. If orange drop caps were sold in high volume and went in consumer electronics, other than vintage styled amps, they would probably be less expensive. But, if they were less expensive they might not sound as good... Fender never selected for magic components, they used what was available. I'm guessing a lot of the difference people hear in caps of the same composition is due to the 10-20% tolerance. You can always paint those Panasonic caps orange (or tropical) to impress your friends. One trap I have found, those Panasonics come in a cut lead variety, so you need to read the datasheet to be sure you don't get really short ones if ordering from a large supplier like mouser or digikey.

[Gainzilla]

My take on this is that there is no mojo. Only dielectric types. I use Panasonic Polyester all the time in Marshall style builds and find they have a lot of the character that Mustard caps do (because they're also polyester). The Panasonics are cheap, reliable, easy to work with, and sound great. The only caveat I've found is that they sometimes need to be burned in to sound their best. What do I mean by that? I've built amps where they sounded really bad, almost broken. Kept playing and after maybe 15 minutes noticed it sounded remarkably better. After another half hour or so the amp suddenly sounded great. I've noticed this more than once, but strangely it's not every time. Or at least maybe not as noticeable. Food for thought to hopefully save you some circular troubleshooting. With that in mind, I use them a lot. They're great.

[drew]

Only drawback to using those Panasonic caps I can see is that the narrow lead spacing is more suited to printed circuit boards than the turret boards, eyelet boards, or parallel terminal strip setups that would typically be found in tube amps. Obviously you can bend the leads as needed if you’re just doing a repair or building a one-off amp; it would be less practical if you were mass-producing things.

[roberto]

Mass production means pcb, so those caps are also mechanically ok.
No one produces turret boars in mass production.

+1 for those caps.