What makes high gain amps to have higher voltage gain thus higher peak dB gain?

[thinkingchicken]

Please don't assume me as a troll or a question bot. I just want to gain more understanding. I want to apologize to everyone in my previous thread and I'm sorry for causing some issues.

I just got a manual of an Ampeg high gain solid-state amp called SS140C and on the technical specifications, it said the total system gain for the highest gain channel is 115dB @ 1khz. Marshall JVM410H, which is a high gain tube amp, also has similar peak dB gain. Prior to this, I really thought solid-state devices can't have a dB gain at such figures like those high gain tube amps until I found several tech specs of some high gain solid-state amps. Thus, it is possible to make amps, regardless if they're tube-based or solid-state, to have peak dB gains of 200 dB and more. But as several people had point out in my previous thread, it is unpractical because most people are after amps that are not noisy. So, all of these fusses about amps having 115 peak dB gain and more are settled.

What makes these high gain amps to have higher voltage gain/db gain? Did the voltage gain come from the power supply? And what determines the headroom of a high gain amp? In my opinion, headroom is nothing more than the power supply itself. The power supply of an amp, for instance the JVM410H, is the one on the rear panel which is the mains input with 250V written below it. Correct?

[Colossal]

What is your obsession with this? This is just voltage amplification. Gain is multiplicative. Yes, you are going to run out of headroom and generate a big square wave loaded with harmonics. Mission accomplished. A 5W amp with an efficient speaker can be incredibly loud, well over 100dB. What is your goal here? Don't piss off the locals or I'll lock this thread down too. I would suggest reading books by Steven Kuehnel and Merlin Blencowe. Also, study the analysis of a Trainwreck Express by Katopan (search this site).

[thinkingchicken]

What is your obsession with this? This is just voltage amplification. Gain is multiplicative. Yes, you are going to run out of headroom and generate a big square wave loaded with harmonics. Mission accomplished. A 5W amp with an efficient speaker can be incredibly loud, well over 100dB. What is your goal here? Don't piss off the locals or I'll lock this thread down too. I would suggest reading books by Steven Kuehnel and Merlin Blencowe. Also, study the analysis of a Trainwreck Express by Katopan (search this site).

Calm down, I am just asking a question. Regarding the 115 peak db gain figures or more, that is already settled. I'm just interested to know what makes high gain amps to have very high voltage gain and what contribute these high voltage gain? Also, I want to know whether headroom is simply the max V of power supply. Right now, I'm really interested in getting clipped signals through raw gain alone without the aids of clipping diodes, etc. Once I understand what makes high gain amps generate high voltage gain and what a headroom is, I'll join my friend to experiment with some components in order to make a noise generator in the form of an amp (maybe a 100 watt) with a peak dB gain of 200 or even a bit more. Because solid-state devices are cheaper, we will use solid-state devices.

Currently I don't have the bucks to buy those books. If you have a link where I can read free articles about how high voltage gain is generated and what determine headroom, it will be very much appreciated.

[Colossal]

Currently I don't have the bucks to buy those books. If you have a link where I can read free articles about how high voltage gain is generated and what determine headroom, it will be very much appreciated.

Read on, MacDuff...

https://www.ampbooks.com
http://www.valvewizard.co.uk

[thinkingchicken]

Currently I don't have the bucks to buy those books. If you have a link where I can read free articles about how high voltage gain is generated and what determine headroom, it will be very much appreciated.

Read on, MacDuff...

https://www.ampbooks.com
http://www.valvewizard.co.uk

Thanks, not sure if I have told everyone this but I have to tell you I'm not a native English speaker so at times I will have a hard time digesting what those technical terms or explanations actually mean. Sorry about that.

I'll try having a look at those links and ask if there's something I don't quite get about.

[Colossal]

Yes, I can tell that you are a non-native speaker but your English is great. Don't worry about that. Focus on Voltage Amplification as that will help you answer your own questions:

http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/Common_Gain_Stage.pdf

[R.G.]

OK, once more.

Gain is the same as db gain, just a different way of saying it. Higher voltage gain and higher db gain are the same thing.

Gain is completely unrelated to voltage. It is a ratio, output size divided by input size.

Maximum gain (... same as peak gain) can only be accurately measured if distortion and clipping are not limiting the output.

And to your current question:

What makes high gain amps to have higher voltage gain thus higher peak dB gain?

The design of the circuits inside: how many individual gain stages, the individual gain of each stage, and the losses between stages.

Your next question will probably be "But how does that make higher db gain?" or something similar.

The answer to that is that you do not understand what "gain" means, and that you do not have the technical background to understand circuits.

This is not a criticism of you; we all started out with zero understanding of amplifiers and gain. But it also means that you will not understand most of the answers. I am somewhat familiar with the books that were recommended. They are good introductions to electronics. But again, your lack of understanding of basic electronics will seriously limit your ability to understand the books. Does your language have something similar to the English phrase "trying to run before you can walk"?

The internet is a very, very poor place to learn basic electronics, which is what you really need to get started at understanding the answers to your questions. There is more to learn there than can be reasonably learned in a forum setting. It was about three college level courses, or more time when learned not as an actual course, but informally over time.

That you are not a native speaker of English was obvious from your questions. No apology is needed; I am not a native speaker of your language, and would do poorly in a forum in your language. But you use English well enough. The language is not the problem; your minimal understanding of "gain"in electronics is keeping you from understanding the answers you get. This extends to not understanding enough even to ask the next question to get better understanding.

This is not a criticism of you. It is friendly advice. You're going to be very frustrated and frustrating if you continue this without learning the basics.

[martin manning]

I just got a manual of an Ampeg high gain solid-state amp called SS140C and on the technical specifications, it said the total system gain for the highest gain channel is 115dB @ 1khz.

I'm curious to know if there is any industry standard for arriving at this figure, and what (if anything) is it good for?

[John_P_WI]

Without knowing the past context, or care to, remember that dB is a ratio. That being said, what is the starting input voltage of the dB figures that you are asking about? There is a huge difference, for example, using a 0.01 v input instead of 1 v which is already a 40 dB discrepancy in the reported value.

IMHO, dB values in musical amplification pre amps is meaningless, in the power amp is another story.

[thetragichero]

what (if anything) is it good for?

it's good for selling stuff. if i pull up a decibel chart 110-120db is listed as rock concert/siren. so not knowing what they're actually saying, it tells your average joe "this thing is loud!"

[Colossal]

If I recall correctly, 142dB is like standing next to a jet engine.

[sluckey]

This is a good discussion topic for your local Guitar Center. Just ask any of the experts behind the counter.

[Phil_S]

This is a good discussion topic for your local Guitar Center. Just ask any of the experts behind the counter.

Last time I was in a GC, it's been many years, I was asking for cables. I didn't know better. I asked for "new trick." The kid who was barely old enough to shave said, "noy trik" makes good cables (or something like that.) I thought he was mocking me. I bought nothing. When I got home I looked up how to say Neutrik and, lo and behold, he was actually correct! I guess he was an expert! Then, there's the microphone company, Neuman (noy mon.) Sorry for straying from the topic. I just couldn't help myself.

I realize TAG is an autocracy, but, if I had a vote, I say the thread should be locked now that I've put in my 2¢. Thank you. (Feel free to delete my off topic rant.)

[thinkingchicken]

Yes, I can tell that you are a non-native speaker but your English is great. Don't worry about that. Focus on Voltage Amplification as that will help you answer your own questions:

http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/Common_Gain_Stage.pdf

OK, once more.

Gain is the same as db gain, just a different way of saying it. Higher voltage gain and higher db gain are the same thing.

Gain is completely unrelated to voltage. It is a ratio, output size divided by input size.

Maximum gain (... same as peak gain) can only be accurately measured if distortion and clipping are not limiting the output.

And to your current question:

What makes high gain amps to have higher voltage gain thus higher peak dB gain?

The design of the circuits inside: how many individual gain stages, the individual gain of each stage, and the losses between stages.

Your next question will probably be "But how does that make higher db gain?" or something similar.

The answer to that is that you do not understand what "gain" means, and that you do not have the technical background to understand circuits.

This is not a criticism of you; we all started out with zero understanding of amplifiers and gain. But it also means that you will not understand most of the answers. I am somewhat familiar with the books that were recommended. They are good introductions to electronics. But again, your lack of understanding of basic electronics will seriously limit your ability to understand the books. Does your language have something similar to the English phrase "trying to run before you can walk"?

The internet is a very, very poor place to learn basic electronics, which is what you really need to get started at understanding the answers to your questions. There is more to learn there than can be reasonably learned in a forum setting. It was about three college level courses, or more time when learned not as an actual course, but informally over time.

That you are not a native speaker of English was obvious from your questions. No apology is needed; I am not a native speaker of your language, and would do poorly in a forum in your language. But you use English well enough. The language is not the problem; your minimal understanding of "gain"in electronics is keeping you from understanding the answers you get. This extends to not understanding enough even to ask the next question to get better understanding.

This is not a criticism of you. It is friendly advice. You're going to be very frustrated and frustrating if you continue this without learning the basics.

Yes, those links are good for understanding the basics. Thanks for sharing.

[thinkingchicken]

I just got a manual of an Ampeg high gain solid-state amp called SS140C and on the technical specifications, it said the total system gain for the highest gain channel is 115dB @ 1khz.

I'm curious to know if there is any industry standard for arriving at this figure, and what (if anything) is it good for?

what (if anything) is it good for?

it's good for selling stuff. if i pull up a decibel chart 110-120db is listed as rock concert/siren. so not knowing what they're actually saying, it tells your average joe "this thing is loud!"

Yes, tragichero got it.

Its simply because gain lovers love high dB gain figures. Maybe, even noise experimenters love that too.