Fetron

[Reeltarded]

hahahaha

[TUBEDUDE]

Smith's rationale actually works very well if you apply reasoning skills to it.

Build an amp that can't be biased out of a safe operating range and strongly recommend using pre-tested tubes that won't operate outside of a good and safe operating range. This is intended to keep the amp from having to be repaired when you buy random cheap tubes that don't bias up properly.

It makes sense if you're the kind of person who doesn't mind playing nicely and within a set of rules.

If you're the kind of guy who finds random 50 year old English made tubes and think, "Oh, those have mojo! I MUST try them in my amp!" and plug them in, and the entire bias circuit VAPORIZES, and then you want your tech to build a new adjustable bias circuit so you can use those tubes, then you wouldn't understand the Smith rationale.

Mesas are the best amps being made today from a build quality standpoint,and from a reliability standpoint, and to my ear, many of their amps are also tops in tone, with the understanding that there are certain kinds of amps for certain kinds of tone. A Mark V does not sound like a real '69 Marshall plexi. I'd know, I have both.

From a repairman's point of view, I don't find Mesas to be difficult to repair. But I've worked as a technician repairing many products that are MANY times more complex and expensive than any guitar amp ever made. So you've got to undo a dozen or so knobs, jack nuts, and washers to get to a board and flip it up for access. Big fat hairy deal. If that intimidates you, I probably am thinking that your technician skills are stuck in the 60s.

Is that you Randall?

[WhopperPlate]

So you've got to undo a dozen or so knobs, jack nuts, and washers to get to a board and flip it up for access. Big fat hairy deal.

You forgot about desoldering 12 or so board connections.

[Matthews Guitars]

Only 12 wires to desolder? I probably don't even need a drawing or photograph to reference for that few connections to deal with.

I've worked on radio equipment that requires you to desolder and remove over 40 wires in order to get the main board out. Big deal.

People who gripe about Mesa amps don't have much experience in servicing and repair of commercial and industrial electronics of many varieties. If they did, they'd know that Mesa amps are actually relatively easy to work on. If you have a little patience and your troubleshooting skills include a bit of digital theory and troubleshooting, anyway.. Because their switching networks are more likely to require troubleshooting than the amplification circuits themselves.

[pompeiisneaks]

Only 12 wires to desolder? I probably don't even need a drawing or photograph to reference for that few connections to deal with.

I've worked on radio equipment that requires you to desolder and remove over 40 wires in order to get the main board out. Big deal.

People who gripe about Mesa amps don't have much experience in servicing and repair of commercial and industrial electronics of many varieties. If they did, they'd know that Mesa amps are actually relatively easy to work on. If you have a little patience and your troubleshooting skills include a bit of digital theory and troubleshooting, anyway.. Because their switching networks are more likely to require troubleshooting than the amplification circuits themselves.

Yeah it's just logical that for something almost every other amp manufacturer found a way to make it 10 times easier, MUST mean they did a crappier job and this level of complexity is just a way to prove yourself as a REAL amp tech. gotcha.

~Phil

[Matthews Guitars]

Comparing amps of equal complexity, I don't see any amp manufacturer making amps that are easier to service than Mesa is while maintaining build quality and road worthiness at the same time. . Sorry, just not seeing it. If they do make it a bit simpler, then they also cheapen the build quality and make the amp less roadworthy. That's not a beneficial tradeoff.

Mesa alone of all big name amp companies has refused to go downmarket and sell amps aimed at the beginner or student market. Every model is built to be played and gigged by working professional musicians. Currently their cheapest model is around 1500 or 1600 dollars and their order backlog tells the tale. They don't NEED to make a cheap line in order to stay in business, which these days not many companies in the music business can honestly say.

I'd go so far as to guess that more than 90 percent of all Mesa amps ever built are still around and probably 90 percent of them are still working. Meanwhile I've seen quite a few various Marshalls, and a good number of Fenders, even very collectible and desirable models, in the junk pile that most guitar amp techs eventually end up with. I've pulled Fender projects out of the junk piles of a couple of older amp techs and rebuilt them. Brownface Tremolux and blackface Super Reverb being just two of several that I brought back to life....

[Reeltarded]

That *is* a cheap line.

I am not going to argue this further. It will bring a beehive of shit.

[pompeiisneaks]

I have a fairly limited experience on this, so I won't go into it too deeply, but I've worked on a bogner shiva, way more expensive than the prices you're quoting, and it was way better laid out than that. I've also worked on a Fuchs Mantis, way cleaner and easier to access and work on. I've worked on a Reeves space cowboy... also way nicer and easier to work on. Maybe they don't have the 50000 knobs and features the mesa has, but imho all 3 sounded way better than a mesa. I personally have never worked on a mesa but seen gut shots and cringed and seen videos by other techs that have worked on them and have a long career in them and so far every single one says they're a royal PITA to work on. They can do an average amp in X mins and a mesa in 10X mins.

One of the techs I've watched do a lot of work is Psionic Audio. Check out his youtube videos on mesas, here's just one example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBIJtzScJCg&t=690s
or this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO4y2MsXDSE

In the end it IS just opinion on sound, but cost and build quality are definitely subjective as well. Just because someone knows how to do a job quickly due to repeatedly doing it, doesn't make it 'trivial' to many if not most others that don't.

I too will stop further discussion about it, though, because as Reel stated... bees and all

~Phil

[Matthews Guitars]

Do keep in mind that Mesa tends to build a lot of amp into a relatively compact chassis. Other than the full width chassis Rectifiers, and the uncommon Stilettos, they're packing a 17" or 22" wide chassis pretty full. It would be easier to make a more open layout in a 25" Marshall style chassis but Randall Smith decided against that in most cases. Still I don't have a problem working in these relatively cramped chassis, and don't see why any other presumably decent technician should find it difficult either.

[Reeltarded]

bees

[teemuk]

...bogner shiva ... Fuchs Mantis... Reeves space cowboy... also way nicer and easier to work on. Maybe they don't have the 50000 knobs and features the mesa has...

You bet they don't. What you list are pretty much semi-dual channel amps with common tone controls so what's even the point of the example that compares apples to oranges? Of course a Fender Champ is easier to work on than Road King... but how about amps like Diezel VHX-100, Marshall JVM410, H&K TriAmp?

... but imho all 3 sounded way better than a mesa.

That's entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

[pompeiisneaks]

...bogner shiva ... Fuchs Mantis... Reeves space cowboy... also way nicer and easier to work on. Maybe they don't have the 50000 knobs and features the mesa has...

You bet they don't. What you list are pretty much semi-dual channel amps with common tone controls so what's even the point of the example that compares apples to oranges? Of course a Fender Champ is easier to work on than Road King... but how about amps like Diezel VHX-100, Marshall JVM410, H&K TriAmp?

... but imho all 3 sounded way better than a mesa.

That's entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

except that this discussion is heavily based on opinion AND i clearly stated it was my opinion, so no it's not... if we're throwing out opinions on what's what, any opinion is relevant. I've told you why mine is. If I as the opinion holder think I'd rather not waste time on an amp that sounds 'meh' and also is a nightmare to work on, then both are very relevant. I don't see them as apples and oranges, I see two companies making amplifiers that are in the realm of what Matthews Guitars claimed were 'higher cost amps' and the ones I mentioned are higher cost amps. So also relevant. You have every right do disagree, since it's an opinion anyway, and has no bearing whatsoever on factual data.

like Reel stated - bees.

~Phil

[pompeiisneaks]

In fact I thought of this after I hit post.

I'm sure there are people out there that strongly believe a champ is a way better sounding amp than a mesa. Working on a champ is WAY easier than a mesa... does that make it an apples to oranges comparison? I don't think it does.

But... there's the rub, it's opinion, not fact.

Factually a champ IS much easier to work on than a mesa. Smaller component list, even in a cramped chassis like the mesa. Opinions on whether or not it's an apples to oranges comparison aren't factual, just opinion.

Factually there are other types of amplifiers or even equipment that are harder to work on than a mesa, doesn't make someone want to work on one more or less, it's just a fact. What makes people want to work on something is how much they want to make money on it, or not, vs the level of effort getting there. If you watched the video by psionic audio you'll note he actually isn't against working on mesas because he makes more money on them. Doing any fix identically on two amps that have the basic same problem costs significantly more on a mesa due to the time he can bill. He gets more money for them... Because they're harder to work on. He's just not a fan due to the extra cost it sends to his customers and the fact that they have a lot of very poor engineering decisions like 'too much stuff in a chassis' etc.

I said I'd stop last time, but that was to Matthews Guitars post. I still should stop because I know that your opinion is going to be better and smarter and more important than mine anyway (I kid).

~Phil

[Reeltarded]

You just wait until Dave gets home.

BEES!

[Leo_Gnardo]

FWIW very early Mesas, 1970's, DID have bias pots. A yellow cube with slot for adjusting. My theory is Mr Smith decided to do away with them after users/techs spun the pot until tube plates glowed red for a "proper" tone. In not too very long owners of those amps would be demanding warranty repairs, a fresh set of outputs at the very minimum. Then repeat the process. You can see why he wanted to avoid continuing playing idiots delight with these people, covering his ass with cold biased outputs and three page diatribe on why Mesa amps don't need bias controls. "Try each variety of our output tubes, kolor koded ROYGBIV plus grey, white, black, tan, pink, paisley and polka dot. One of these is bound to make your ears happy." Sure, and every dealer always has all the varieties in stock, and every Mesa amp owner has the budget and patience to try tubes with emission characteristics scattered across the spectrum. NOT. Very imaginative way of gaining yet more profit Mr. Smith.

More tales of Mesa horrors, but occasionally things did go well instead. I'll spare you now, and save them for when I'm stuck in the old folks home and need material to talk to myself about. I do have to say, they've been quite cooperative in supplying transformers plus some parts difficult to obtain except through them. Just don't bother calling Fridays, they're all taking the day off, gone surfing no doubt. This last feature may or may not have continued after Mesa was taken over by Gibson a couple years ago. New management might want folks putting in a five day work week, what a drag for them I'm sure.

Bees indeed!