Fetron
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FUCHSAUDIO
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Re: Fetron
Mike Bendinelli at Mesa told me "we rip those out and put in real tubes, as well as the constant current diodes in the cathodes"...Oh, why ? "they sounded like ass"...
Nuff said. With modern LND-150's you can do so much better as far as solid state tube substitutes...
Nuff said. With modern LND-150's you can do so much better as far as solid state tube substitutes...
Proud holder of US Patent # 7336165.
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Stevem
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Re: Fetron
Those components basically made for a radio shack 20 dollar fuzz box tone in a otherwise expensive amp for back then!
Some peoples ears have earned there degree and graduated away from that!
Some peoples ears have earned there degree and graduated away from that!
When I die, I want to go like my Grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming like the passengers in his car!
Cutting out a man's tongue does not mean he’s a liar, but it does show that you fear the truth he might speak about you!
Not screaming like the passengers in his car!
Cutting out a man's tongue does not mean he’s a liar, but it does show that you fear the truth he might speak about you!
Re: Fetron
from the manual..
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Reeltarded
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Re: Fetron
FUCHSAUDIO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 4:59 pm Mike Bendinelli at Mesa told me "we rip those out and put in real tubes, as well as the constant current diodes in the cathodes"...Oh, why ? "they sounded like ass"...
Nuff said. With modern LND-150's you can do so much better as far as solid state tube substitutes...
How could they know it sounded like ass?
Ahh they bought a decent sounding amp to test it in.
Sorry to bother.
Signatures have a 255 character limit that I could abuse, but I am not Cecil B. DeMille.
Re: Fetron
I guess every Mesa I've heard had a fetid fetron as they all sounded like ass. Except a Blue Angel I heard a decade ago. That was nice.Reeltarded wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 10:00 pmFUCHSAUDIO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 4:59 pm Mike Bendinelli at Mesa told me "we rip those out and put in real tubes, as well as the constant current diodes in the cathodes"...Oh, why ? "they sounded like ass"...
Nuff said. With modern LND-150's you can do so much better as far as solid state tube substitutes...
How could they know it sounded like ass?
Ahh they bought a decent sounding amp to test it in.
Sorry to bother.
Tube junkie that aspires to become a tri-state bidirectional buss driver.
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Reeltarded
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Re: Fetron
Here is my truth. SOB then Mk IV.
All others SLA.
That 1st batch of SOBs was freaking amazing.
Mk IV finally had a workable two channel amp.
Randall Smith patented sounding like ass, apparently.
All others SLA.
That 1st batch of SOBs was freaking amazing.
Mk IV finally had a workable two channel amp.
Randall Smith patented sounding like ass, apparently.
Signatures have a 255 character limit that I could abuse, but I am not Cecil B. DeMille.
Re: Fetron
Is he still too cheap to include bias controls?
Tube junkie that aspires to become a tri-state bidirectional buss driver.
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Reeltarded
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Re: Fetron
The bias circuts in the last 20 years fails in 18 months about the same time as the tubes.. so..
Signatures have a 255 character limit that I could abuse, but I am not Cecil B. DeMille.
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FUCHSAUDIO
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Re: Fetron
Funny story: I was working in a repair shop (Triple S), and we were an east coast service center for Mesa-Boogie in the 80's. A customer comes in with a fresh set of Mesa tubes (premium, tested, etc) for us to install in his Mark amp.
I put them in. The outputs are Chinese crap, and running at 20 ma each or so. I add a bias pot and a test point, and bias them to 35 or so. The preamp tubes are also Chinese crap with heatshrink tubing bearing the Mesa logo and SP12AX7 on them. They are noisy and microphonic. The amp sounded better on the old Sylvania power tubes and American preamp tubes....I install a bias pot and get the tubes warm, and end up putting his old preamp tubes back, because they sounded so much better than what be bought.
Customer calls Mesa, sends a copy of our invoice (which mentioned adding bias pot), as he wanted a refund on the preamp tubes. I get a call personally from Randy Dandy, telling me "If you ever modify one of my amps or add a bias pot, I'll tear your warranty contract up"....nuff-said.
He's made a cute little business of convincing the masses that they MUST buy and use Mesa tubes... and the lack of bias pot basically guarantees that I guess. It would be nice if the tubes they ship "specifically for YOUR amp"..actually matched what the amp was biased for....
Proud holder of US Patent # 7336165.
Re: Fetron
I wonder...
There's a common hate towards these things but they were still made for purpose, mainly to eliminate microphonics and to increase overall lifespan of devices while simultaneously reducing their power consumption and waste heat dissipation. At least the first characteristics doesn't seem like a stupid idea considering input stage of a high gain guitar amp. And then, for instance, Mesa never really used them for applications like generating distortion - they were placed in sort of "transparent" stages like that input or tonestack gain recovery - so how to ascertain that transparency sounds "like ass"? At least to me statements like that suspiciously reek like later popular thought patterns brought up by tube revival where all tube was instantly great and all SS bad.
Then, how much was "user error"? Some Mesas had a switch to set proper operating conditions and I bet that the average Joe guitarist didn't fail to experiment with it as a "tone control" or just another effect. Say, a manual instructs to adjust proper plate voltage for Fetron; please do translate that to "non-nerd" a guitarist will understand... There's a good reason why Mesa's don't have user adjustable bias either; a great chance for user to abuse it. Bias? Current? Translate to "non-nerd" again...
And then, Fetrons never were for guitar effect processing to begin with. Want a substitute for a 12AX7? First define the idea of "substitute". For folks who developed Fetron the idea was not only increased reliability and lower current draw, but also improved performance over the original tube, that approaching pentode or transistor characteristics.
We all probably agree that plate current and transconductance dependent on plate voltage is a great thing when we want to build an audio effect device that compresses a signal ... yet developers of Fetron did not have that goal and such characteristic was, for them, considered a serious flaw. And audio effect devices, let's face it, were a total niche in Fetron target market. Audibly nice deficiencies of a 12AX7 would have been a ridiculous concept in a computer logic, telecommunications amplifier, oscilloscope or a missile guidance system; the Fetron never was an "emulator" device. Adjusting expectations to that is the first step. ...and then again, Mesa never even intented to employ them for obviously non-transparent amplification / effect processing but to replace quirky and microphonic vacuum tubes.
There's a common hate towards these things but they were still made for purpose, mainly to eliminate microphonics and to increase overall lifespan of devices while simultaneously reducing their power consumption and waste heat dissipation. At least the first characteristics doesn't seem like a stupid idea considering input stage of a high gain guitar amp. And then, for instance, Mesa never really used them for applications like generating distortion - they were placed in sort of "transparent" stages like that input or tonestack gain recovery - so how to ascertain that transparency sounds "like ass"? At least to me statements like that suspiciously reek like later popular thought patterns brought up by tube revival where all tube was instantly great and all SS bad.
Then, how much was "user error"? Some Mesas had a switch to set proper operating conditions and I bet that the average Joe guitarist didn't fail to experiment with it as a "tone control" or just another effect. Say, a manual instructs to adjust proper plate voltage for Fetron; please do translate that to "non-nerd" a guitarist will understand... There's a good reason why Mesa's don't have user adjustable bias either; a great chance for user to abuse it. Bias? Current? Translate to "non-nerd" again...
And then, Fetrons never were for guitar effect processing to begin with. Want a substitute for a 12AX7? First define the idea of "substitute". For folks who developed Fetron the idea was not only increased reliability and lower current draw, but also improved performance over the original tube, that approaching pentode or transistor characteristics.
We all probably agree that plate current and transconductance dependent on plate voltage is a great thing when we want to build an audio effect device that compresses a signal ... yet developers of Fetron did not have that goal and such characteristic was, for them, considered a serious flaw. And audio effect devices, let's face it, were a total niche in Fetron target market. Audibly nice deficiencies of a 12AX7 would have been a ridiculous concept in a computer logic, telecommunications amplifier, oscilloscope or a missile guidance system; the Fetron never was an "emulator" device. Adjusting expectations to that is the first step. ...and then again, Mesa never even intented to employ them for obviously non-transparent amplification / effect processing but to replace quirky and microphonic vacuum tubes.
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Reeltarded
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Re: Fetron
I don't think we like Randall because of 1000 reasons... and I'm all for anything that makes my guitars sound even better.
But...
But...
Signatures have a 255 character limit that I could abuse, but I am not Cecil B. DeMille.
Re: Fetron
I'm not talking about user adjustments. All fixed bias amps should have an internal bias adjustment. At two dollars in parts, less at scale, it's a crappy way to save a buck. But we all know it wasn't an incompetent engineering decision. As Reeltarded posted, it's a sleazy way to boost income, telling amp owners they need a special numbered matched set of power tubes.Reeltarded wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:22 am I don't think we like Randall because of 1000 reasons... and I'm all for anything that makes my guitars sound even better.
But...
Tube junkie that aspires to become a tri-state bidirectional buss driver.
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Reeltarded
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Re: Fetron
STR! 30 seconds! GO!!
STILL TRYING, RANDALL?
SHIT! TUBES REDPLATED!
... ding..
It's like playing Battleship. "Uhhh.. H7?"... "Miss!"..
STILL TRYING, RANDALL?
SHIT! TUBES REDPLATED!
... ding..
It's like playing Battleship. "Uhhh.. H7?"... "Miss!"..
Signatures have a 255 character limit that I could abuse, but I am not Cecil B. DeMille.
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Matthews Guitars
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Re: Fetron
Smith's rationale actually works very well if you apply reasoning skills to it.
Build an amp that can't be biased out of a safe operating range and strongly recommend using pre-tested tubes that won't operate outside of a good and safe operating range. This is intended to keep the amp from having to be repaired when you buy random cheap tubes that don't bias up properly.
It makes sense if you're the kind of person who doesn't mind playing nicely and within a set of rules.
If you're the kind of guy who finds random 50 year old English made tubes and think, "Oh, those have mojo! I MUST try them in my amp!" and plug them in, and the entire bias circuit VAPORIZES, and then you want your tech to build a new adjustable bias circuit so you can use those tubes, then you wouldn't understand the Smith rationale.
Mesas are the best amps being made today from a build quality standpoint,and from a reliability standpoint, and to my ear, many of their amps are also tops in tone, with the understanding that there are certain kinds of amps for certain kinds of tone. A Mark V does not sound like a real '69 Marshall plexi. I'd know, I have both.
From a repairman's point of view, I don't find Mesas to be difficult to repair. But I've worked as a technician repairing many products that are MANY times more complex and expensive than any guitar amp ever made. So you've got to undo a dozen or so knobs, jack nuts, and washers to get to a board and flip it up for access. Big fat hairy deal. If that intimidates you, I probably am thinking that your technician skills are stuck in the 60s.
Build an amp that can't be biased out of a safe operating range and strongly recommend using pre-tested tubes that won't operate outside of a good and safe operating range. This is intended to keep the amp from having to be repaired when you buy random cheap tubes that don't bias up properly.
It makes sense if you're the kind of person who doesn't mind playing nicely and within a set of rules.
If you're the kind of guy who finds random 50 year old English made tubes and think, "Oh, those have mojo! I MUST try them in my amp!" and plug them in, and the entire bias circuit VAPORIZES, and then you want your tech to build a new adjustable bias circuit so you can use those tubes, then you wouldn't understand the Smith rationale.
Mesas are the best amps being made today from a build quality standpoint,and from a reliability standpoint, and to my ear, many of their amps are also tops in tone, with the understanding that there are certain kinds of amps for certain kinds of tone. A Mark V does not sound like a real '69 Marshall plexi. I'd know, I have both.
From a repairman's point of view, I don't find Mesas to be difficult to repair. But I've worked as a technician repairing many products that are MANY times more complex and expensive than any guitar amp ever made. So you've got to undo a dozen or so knobs, jack nuts, and washers to get to a board and flip it up for access. Big fat hairy deal. If that intimidates you, I probably am thinking that your technician skills are stuck in the 60s.