What do you believe regarding the sound of passive components?

[R.G.]

Yeah, I know, but the discussion has veered off a bit. There's only one realistic answer to the question. I'm just starting from first principles after reading a few of the preceding posts.

[WhopperPlate]

Thanks Martin . Are there any further questions I haven’t answered yet ? I mean besides ABX…

[WhopperPlate]

Right. What I said was better.

That’s what I said

That is not what he said.

Correct

[quote=WhopperPlate post_id=463014 time=<a href="tel:1709395015">1709395015</a> user_id=8476]
Better answer than: “I can’t hear, feel, or measure a difference, therefore there is no difference, and everyone who perceives otherwise deserves an eye roll ”

Who exactly said that?
[/quote]

Definitely not you of course

[TUBEDUDE]

And lately reality needs dithering, or more bias to calm it down a skosh.*

I think more negative feedback.

*from Japanese sukoshi [skoh shee] meaning "a tiny bit"

Kore wa nihonese des ka? I remember little of the Japanese I learned as a youth in Hawaii.
High bias voltage, Negative Feedback, and a regulated low screen voltage!

[martin manning]

Kore wa nihonese des ka? I remember little of the Japanese I learned as a youth in Hawaii.

いいえ (iie). I only know a few words. Skosh is one of the few Japanese words that have become part of American english

[Reeltarded]

And lately reality needs dithering, or more bias to calm it down a skosh.*

I think more negative feedback.

*from Japanese sukoshi [skoh shee] meaning "a tiny bit"

HAH!

Good answer AND hilarious.

[Reeltarded]

ok coffee first be back

[R.G.]

[quote=WhopperPlate post_id=463014 time=<a href="tel:1709395015">1709395015</a> user_id=8476]
Better answer than: “I can’t hear, feel, or measure a difference, therefore there is no difference, and everyone who perceives otherwise deserves an eye roll ”

Who exactly said that?

Definitely not you of course

But you did.

[R.G.]

https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/the- ... -thinking/

[Colossal]

R.G.,

With all due respect, just because you don't hear any difference between components that does not mean that one does not exist and that the rest of us that do suffer from some delusion. If people hear a difference between parts and want to discuss it, so be it. If you don't hear a difference, that's fine.

I guess I'll put a dog in the fight and go on record here now to say that I can clearly hear the difference between an Auricap polypropylene and a Sozo polyester in the first coupling cap position on a single channel Tweed Deluxe, for example, and the difference is not subtle. Similarly, the difference between an IRC GS-0 3W metal glaze resistor and a Takman 1W carbon film in the same amp for the V1 plate was clearly evident (I opted for the Takman). I was actually quite surprised by that!

When I first started building and modding amps almost 17 years ago now (time sure flies) I first encountered the difference between "the sound" of some parts with the same value but dissimilar materials by accident. I was too new to have even have heard from others that differences may exist, or that an amp's tone may be specifically tuned by parts selection. So there was no pre-existing supposition that I should expect to hear a difference. I discovered this through experimentation. I didn't ask to hear a difference but came to that realization by direct experience.

[martin manning]

PET and PP dielectrics have measurably different characteristics, including temperature coefficient and capacitance frequency dependence. These are small effects, a couple or three percent, but they are real.

[bepone]

end........if you multiply small effects with factor 1 000 000 of higher gain preamp, what you get at the end?

[martin manning]

...I can clearly hear the difference between an Auricap polypropylene and a Sozo polyester in the first coupling cap position on a single channel Tweed Deluxe...

PET and PP dielectrics have measurably different characteristics, including temperature coefficient and capacitance frequency dependence. These are small effects, a couple or three percent, but they are real.

Coupling caps are generally working on the low end of the frequency response curve as high-pass filters, so the reduction in capacitance at high frequencies seen in PP wrt PET wouldn't seem to be in play. In any case, a couple of percent is only 1/5 of the typical PET (OD Type PS, e.g.) cap's 10% tolerance.

[R.G.]

With all due respect, just because you don't hear any difference between components that does not mean that one does not exist and that the rest of us that do suffer from some delusion.

I appreciate your approach.

However - I never said there was no difference, or that people who hear component differences are delusional. What's actually going on here is that two, or a few participants in the recent threads are trying to put those words in my mouth. Just to be clear:

I. Didn't. Say. That.

My position as I've stated clearly is that if there is a perceived tonal difference based just on component type (material, brand, age, etc.) and is it not a function of the component tolerances , then it ought to be possible for this difference to be reliably measured.

If it can't be measured, how do we logically account for the difference?

As an example, I went off to track down the mythos that only carbon comp resistors sound good. Turns out, they have subtle asymmetrical distortion as a result of their large voltage coefficient of resistance. I am certain I'm not the first person to find that out, but I was the first person to publish/blather it out to the parts of the internet guitar fora that I frequent. Sure enough, there is a measurable explanation for the mythos. And it turns out that there are specific conditions where CC can contribute to tone. The myths are both busted and not busted - CC makes a tone difference but it's only significant in certain circuit positions. In other positions it contributes more excess noise than soft, chewy distortion.

If people hear a difference between parts and want to discuss it, so be it. If you don't hear a difference, that's fine.

It's fine with me if people hear a difference and want to discuss it If you'll go back and read that I posted on this and other threads, I'm all in favor of finding tonal differences. I just have this ugly suspicion that if something is real, it can be at least potentially measured.

And yes, a few comments in another thread set off my "gotta measure it" alarm. The contention was that one could make an amp have a certain tonal character merely by using certain brands of resistors. So - can you really make an amp be midrange, or percussive, or whatever, just by changing resistor brands?

Well, maybe. That is a pretty astounding assertion - that by changing the brand of resistors, not the values, presumably, that the tonal character of the amp will change. So, let's assume that the assertion is true. Here is an amplifier. It sounds like it sounds, by listening test. A skilled, competent and >impartial< technician takes it away and changes all the resistors with carefully matched resistance values, but of a different brand. The amp is brought back to us and we listen again. Did the tone quality change?

Maybe. That was the prediction. But what if the tech doing the changing is a scoundrel, and merely goes off and has a beer for a few hours and does not change the resistors out? NOW do we hear a tonal change, or do we refuse to pay the tech because our ears tell us irrefutably that the tone did not change and he didn't do his work.

How sure can be be of our position about paying the tech? If what the tech did was unknown, and he may have changed all the resistors or not, or only some of them, should we pay him?

The proponents of the resistor-brand-matters side hold that they can tell, just by listening, and do it reliably.

This bothers me, because I cannot think of any possible technical reason for that to be possible.

There's a principle in scientific and technical circles that sometimes astounding assertions that contradict existing accepted science are true - but this requires equally astounding proof of the assertion.

[WhopperPlate]

And yes, a few comments in another thread set off my "gotta measure it" alarm. The contention was that one could make an amp have a certain tonal character merely by using certain brands of resistors. So - can you really make an amp be midrange, or percussive, or whatever, just by changing resistor brands?

Well, maybe. That is a pretty astounding assertion - that by changing the brand of resistors, not the values, presumably, that the tonal character of the amp will change.

Not really. induction differences alone is enough to consider potential differences between brands . Repeating myself again…Again, a brand is simply a recipe , and each brand has a unique recipe that too can change with the fluctuation of available raw material sources…and definitely changes for each component within that brand …ie a KOA MF sounds different than a KOA CF , and s KOA CF sounds different than an Xicon CF.

So, let's assume that the assertion is true. Here is an amplifier. It sounds like it sounds, by listening test. A skilled, competent and >impartial< technician takes it away and changes all the resistors with carefully matched resistance values, but of a different brand. The amp is brought back to us and we listen again. Did the tone quality change?

I am guessing all the skilled and competent techs who have spoken throughout history on this and answered definitely “yes” are somehow ignorable ?

But what if the tech doing the changing is a scoundrel, and merely goes off and has a beer for a few hours and does not change the resistors out? NOW do we hear a tonal change, or do we refuse to pay the tech because our ears tell us irrefutably that the tone did not change and he didn't do his work.

How sure can be be of our position about paying the tech? If what the tech did was unknown, and he may have changed all the resistors or not, or only some of them, should we pay him?

Strange hypothetical situation …might want to find a better tech (?)…

… besides, if you can’t hear a difference between said resistors , then you probably aren’t going to pay anyone to change anything for tone… those kind of players don’t ask for that….

Beyond that, it’s 2024, I text my clients before and after photos to show what I have done , and as I always have been taught I hand them a bag of parts that were replaced .

I would go hunt down and quote myself describing my experiences and entire process that I do with my own clients, but at this point I am kinda tired repeating myself .

The proponents of the resistor-brand-matters side hold that they can tell, just by listening, and do it reliably.

This bothers me, because I cannot think of any possible technical reason for that to be possible.

And yet it is possible ! I am glad you don’t think we are delusional !