What do you believe regarding the sound of passive components?

[martin manning]

induction differences alone is enough to consider potential differences between brands .

Do you mean inductance? This is easy to measure, and it's negligible.

[R.G.]

Not really. induction differences alone is enough to consider potential differences between brands .

Can you describe what, exactly, you mean by "induction differences"? Is that magnetic? Inductive?
I'll have to see what you call "induction differences" between brands. If you mean the magnetic induction parasitics, that has been studied to death by people who make resistors and the ones who use them for RF and power switching, where the self inductance of a resistor really, really matters. It's calculable. And being calculable, we can calculate and model what effect, if any, slight differences in self inductance have in a circuit at audio frequencies.

What I really think is that you don't have any real basis for this other than thinking it sounds plausible. Got numbers?

Repeating myself again…Again, a brand is simply a recipe , and each brand has a unique recipe that too can change with the fluctuation of available raw material sources…and definitely changes for each component within that brand …ie a KOA MF sounds different than a KOA CF , and s KOA CF sounds different than an Xicon CF.

OK. A brand is a recipe. An (insert brand) resistor can change with time and fluctuations of materials. And definitely changes with each component in the brand.
'Splain to me then how that means an iskra or piher will always make an amp sound ... I forget, was it midrangey, or percussive? Especially if their recipe changes with changing materials and fluctuating recipes. If a KOA mf sounds different from a KOA cf, how can the "KOA" resistor change an amp tone in a certain way, if the sub-parts of KOA are different?
Presumably you'd like iskra and piher to have the same variability. How, exactly, can you then say the brand name will definitely tell you anything about tone?

I'm guessing that the number of times I ask for "exactly" are going to be futile.

I am guessing all the skilled and competent techs who have spoken throughout history on this and answered definitely “yes” are somehow ignorable ?

Nice try The tech in this case doesn't do the evaluation of the tone, only swapping resistors. The fact that he can remove and resolder resistors doesn't mean he can even hear. You're trying to conflate soldering skill with listening skill. They're not the same, you know it, and you're playing to the crowd.

Strange hypothetical situation …might want to find a better tech (?)…

Not particularly strange. The tech had one job to do, change resistors. His skill at anything else is irrelevant, of course. But nice try at diversion.

… besides, if you can’t hear a difference between said resistors , then you probably aren’t going to pay anyone to change anything for tone… those kind of players don’t ask for that….

\Beyond that, it’s 2024, I text my clients before and after photos to show what I have done , and as I always have been taught I hand them a bag of parts that were replaced .

Hmmm. OK, so people ...pay... you to make their amps sound better in some way. I'm sure that having a financial interest in being able to make amps change tone will have absolutely no effect on whether you hear things, consciously or unconsciously. Well, OK, then.

[/quote]
And yet it is possible ! I am glad you don’t think we are delusional !
[/quote]
Of course it's possible. See "carbon composition resistors" again. Ooops, need several more "agains". I have no financial interest in the tonal effects of the brand label on the box or bag having a predictable effect on the overall tone of the amp. So I want my proof in the form of something that can be measured, not just in anecdotes. It's a difference in objectives.

I sincerely, sincerely hope that you are not delusional. But there's a lot of shades of perception. Read anything on those links I entered? Humans seem to have an innate need to believe in some kind of "magic" and fall back on it a lot.

[WhopperPlate]

Not really. induction differences alone is enough to consider potential differences between brands .

Can you describe what, exactly, you mean by "induction differences"? Is that magnetic? Inductive?
I'll have to see what you call "induction differences" between brands. If you mean the magnetic induction parasitics, that has been studied to death by people who make resistors and the ones who use them for RF and power switching, where the self inductance of a resistor really, really matters. It's calculable. And being calculable, we can calculate and model what effect, if any, slight differences in self inductance have in a circuit at audio frequencies.

What I really think is that you don't have any real basis for this other than thinking it sounds plausible. Got numbers?

Yes, I am more or less echoing the same things I have heard as plausible explanations from people more red respected an experienced than I. No, I haven’t been measuring every brand of resistor for INDUCTANCE and don’t have numbers for you .

OK. A brand is a recipe. An (insert brand) resistor can change with time and fluctuations of materials. And definitely changes with each component in the brand.
'Splain to me then how that means an iskra or piher will always make an amp sound ... I forget, was it midrangey, or percussive? Especially if their recipe changes with changing materials and fluctuating recipes. If a KOA mf sounds different from a KOA cf, how can the "KOA" resistor change an amp tone in a certain way, if the sub-parts of KOA are different?
Presumably you'd like iskra and piher to have the same variability. How, exactly, can you then say the brand name will definitely tell you anything about tone?

Use your ears . Test them against each other . Buy a new batch and compare them against the old one. You are over thinking this . You need proof for what your ears can’t do for yourself . I can’t help you other than how I have offered.

Nice try The tech in this case doesn't do the evaluation of the tone, only swapping resistors. The fact that he can remove and resolder resistors doesn't mean he can even hear. You're trying to conflate soldering skill with listening skill. They're not the same, you know it, and you're playing to the crowd.

Not following what you mean

Not particularly strange. The tech had one job to do, change resistors. His skill at anything else is irrelevant, of course. But nice try at diversion.

Weren’t we talking about a scoundrel ? You are losing me fast

Hmmm. OK, so people ...pay... you to make their amps sound better in some way. I'm sure that having a financial interest in being able to make amps change tone will have absolutely no effect on whether you hear things, consciously or unconsciously. Well, OK, then.

Lol now we are back in the land of where you continuously prove all my words that I have carefully typed , practically to you directly, were either never read or never comprehended …

I could quote myself again , I could go on a rambling tangent autobiography explaining my roots and my story up until this moment to somehow substantiate that I am not a hypothetical scoundrel , but I doubt any of that would suspend your disbelief at this point , and I don’t really care honestly

Of course it's possible. See "carbon composition resistors" again. Ooops, need several more "agains". I have no financial interest in the tonal effects of the brand label on the box or bag having a predictable effect on the overall tone of the amp. So I want my proof in the form of something that can be measured, not just in anecdotes. It's a difference in objectives.

Sigh

We have addressed this

I don’t know how to talk to you and be heard . Its weird .

I have no qualms with your desire for real measurable evidence of differences to prove to yourself. my objectives are exceptionally great sounding amps that meet the individual demands of clients , period . With such a saturated and easily accessible market I wouldn’t sell a thing if they sounded anything less than outstanding , but here I am repeating myself again . This is getting boring

I sincerely, sincerely hope that you are not delusional. But there's a lot of shades of perception. Read anything on those links I entered? Humans seem to have an innate need to believe in some kind of "magic" and fall back on it a lot.

And that’s the paragraph that confirms most of my suspicions . I am all out of time for repeating myself just so I can be ignored …

Too busy because I gotta go rip off my clients by deceiving them into changing all their resistors in their amp and convincing them they hear magic . Later guys

[erwin_ve]

Did anyone read, besides Martin, the Bateman files I posted in this thread? Real numbers there

[bepone]

. You need proof for what your ears can’t do for yourself .

This i slike so much! and really nails the point! Why to bother if you dont hear anything?

I allready stated years ago, if someone cannot have any idea about this type of gastronomy (how to build sound), why he just dont quit this hobby?

Someone is also in bussiness ofc. If he is deaf.. really not reccomended for this type of bussiness.

[bepone]

Did anyone read, besides Martin, the Bateman files I posted in this thread? Real numbers there

There is many articles in the past about who is interested will find easily, no need to have this thread. This thread is made for deaf and lazy people and they will do 0 with the findings

[bepone]

very interesting answers from "technical" people.. like "sigh".. "sigh"... how to convert this technically?

[johnnyreece]

Seems to be getting a little testy in here...how about a simple summary that everyone (should) be able to agree on:

If a component alters the sound, that alteration has to be able to be measurable somehow. We may not know exactly what to measure, but it *is* there. If ears can hear a difference, a machine can do it multiple times better. One just has to know what machine to use/how to use it. Right?

Ears, while great for us folks who like to hear, aren't terribly reliable. Whether we like it or not, every day our ability to hear high frequencies diminishes. Also, some days a noise I find pleasant will instead irritate me. I'd guess that's because all these sounds are interpreted by another unreliable entity: The brain. A simple Google search shows how mood affects what we hear, and vice-versa. Lots of factors at play when we hear something.

Personally? If I want something to sound different, I'm modifying a circuit. Change coupling cap values, or bypass cap values. Maybe tweak tonestack values. Bias hotter/colder. Increase/decrease filtering. There's a myriad of ways to alter the sound of an amp without worrying about what type of components I'm using. I buy certain components because of #1 price, #2 quality, #3 lead length, and a distant #4 appearance. Mostly because, other than you guys here, no one else will probably ever see the inside of my amps. The folks who play my stuff seem to enjoy it (me included, FWIW). And, when the drummer kicks in, any minute differences are lost in the mix. That's me, though. I'm too lazy to set up any kind of test where I'd listen back and forth, over and over, deciding what resistor sounded warmer, less sterile, swirlier...whatever. Do I sometimes use CC resistors as preamp plate resistors? Sure! Mostly because I have some, and to a lesser extent, because some guy on the internet (wink, wink) wrote a paper saying it *might* make an audible difference.

So, to the silver-eared folks out there who *can* hear the difference? Cheers to you when science finally figures out how to measure what you're hearing. And, if it's all in your head, who cares? You're happy, and that's all that matters. Unfortunately, until it's proven (either way, mind you) in some kind of official testing capacity, it's like the Dude says: Well...you know...that's just like, uh...your opinion, man. There's lots of opinions on this board (EL84 suck, Chinese tubes are garbage, etc.), and we all seem to be fine with those. Can we treat this opinion the same and just get along?

[martin manning]

Very well said! I see no reason to avoid discussing the topic just because it can be controversial. People who feel that there is no value in it are more than welcome to ignore it. IMO some interesting things have come out in his thread, including some good reference materials, and a pretty good read on how widely accepted these ideas are based on the survey results.

[WhopperPlate]

And, if it's all in your head, who cares?

The client . Hard to eat when what you are selling is simply all in your head …

I personally have never convinced a player that something sounds preferable or different if they didn’t think so themselves. I can’t make people feel good if it doesn’t sound right (any attempt to sway their opinion would compromise my own integrity) and if I could it’s most likely because they aren’t picky or discerning enough, and they inevitably wouldn’t seek out and pay for expensive custom amps or modifications to begin with . Those people don’t care , and they will tell you so .

It’s not easy meeting serious players demands; if it was there would be one manufacturer making everything anyone ever wanted , and all pro players would play the same rig.

opinions and assholes …everyone has em…(yes, for those keeping track I am repeating myself again )…not everyone can smell them though apparently …now I am really crossing wires with the comparisons ….

[johnnyreece]

The client . Hard to eat when what you are selling is simply all in your head …

Well, if you and your clients believe it, bully for you! I'm truly happy for you! All I'm saying is, until whatever *it* is can be measured, it's only theoretical. No shame in that; lots of things are theories until they're facts. Shoot, while we're at it, let's talk about Ken Fischer's beliefs about components: The color, material, and insulation type of wire all affect the sound. Could it be? I dunno! Whether he was right or wrong, he believed it, and a lot of people are happy with his work. Rather than digging at each other about this, I was simply suggesting we lower the temperature a little, because it's starting to feel a bit hostile. Don't want someone to take things to far and not make it down to breakfast.

[bepone]

Again "believing" , spiritual thing Egg or chicken ? Which was first.

And about the testing, and asking for it, it is a real nonsense on this forum if you think about deeply... Who has several (tens) thousand(s) $$ Rohde Schwartz or Keysight audio analiser at home and ready to spend several days in component testing ..also this guy does he knows something what he will test, or..? There is 0.00005% chance to find this person here.

And if so (like my case per example ) why i should do that??? And why i need to represent those (very expensive data) free of charge online? For "unbelievers"??? or for the rest of the world? Also again.. why... i see no reason. Lets hear some "sigh's"

[martin manning]

Again "believing" , spiritual thing :lol: Egg or chicken ? Which was first.

"Believe" has two senses, one is to accept something as true or fact. As for chickens, they are hybrid birds. The egg had to come first.

[R.G.]

Equivalent series inductance makes the impedance of a resistor plus ESL higher with frequency. The frequency where the inductive reactance equals the resistance is taken as the critical point of its filtering. The frequency were that happens is F = R / (2 * pi * L). I did a quick look for the self inductance of different types of resistors. Modern film types are passed over as in general under 2 nanoHenries of self inductance. Metal oxide runs to 2-200nH according to the chart I found. Carbon comp, by the way, has almost no self inductance, other than the distributed inductance of the lead wire itself.

If you have a 1K metal oxide resistor with 200nH of self inductance, the frequency where the inductive reactance exceeds the resistance is F = 1000 / (2 * 3.14 * 200nH) = 796 MHz. A 100k resistor hits its turnover at 796GHz.

Of course, the self capacitance enters the picture and prevents the total impedance from ever getting to that turnover. And the self inductance of the wire leads enters the picture. For the wire typically used in guitar amps, the self inductance is about 25nH per inch. That’s a rule of thumb; the exact self inductance is a function of the diameter, but it’s a useful approximation because of that “nH” value. A couple of inches of lead wire plus hookup wire gives a nil-inductance carbon comp resistor as much self inductance as a metal oxide. The bottom line there is that the self inductance of a film resistor is very much in the same rough size as the self inductance of the lead and hookup wires.

The Mega-Hertz and Giga-Hertz in the numbers means that it is highly doubtful that resistor inductance has an effect in audio circuitry. This is the essence of what was going through my head when I read that certain brands of resistors give midrange or percussive effects to amplifiers. Resistors adding a tone color in the audio midrange simply does not make sense. Different materials? Sure. See “Carbon comp”.

[erwin_ve]

Equivalent series inductance makes the impedance of a resistor plus ESL higher with frequency. The frequency where the inductive reactance equals the resistance is taken as the critical point of its filtering. The frequency were that happens is F = R / (2 * pi * L). I did a quick look for the self inductance of different types of resistors. Modern film types are passed over as in general under 2 nanoHenries of self inductance. Metal oxide runs to 2-200nH according to the chart I found. Carbon comp, by the way, has almost no self inductance, other than the distributed inductance of the lead wire itself.

If you have a 1K metal oxide resistor with 200nH of self inductance, the frequency where the inductive reactance exceeds the resistance is F = 1000 / (2 * 3.14 * 200nH) = 796 MHz. A 100k resistor hits its turnover at 796GHz.

Of course, the self capacitance enters the picture and prevents the total impedance from ever getting to that turnover. And the self inductance of the wire leads enters the picture. For the wire typically used in guitar amps, the self inductance is about 25nH per inch. That’s a rule of thumb; the exact self inductance is a function of the diameter, but it’s a useful approximation because of that “nH” value. A couple of inches of lead wire plus hookup wire gives a nil-inductance carbon comp resistor as much self inductance as a metal oxide. The bottom line there is that the self inductance of a film resistor is very much in the same rough size as the self inductance of the lead and hookup wires.

The Mega-Hertz and Giga-Hertz in the numbers means that it is highly doubtful that resistor inductance has an effect in audio circuitry. This is the essence of what was going through my head when I read that certain brands of resistors give midrange or percussive effects to amplifiers. Resistors adding a tone color in the audio midrange simply does not make sense. Different materials? Sure. See “Carbon comp”.

RG; is any type of resistor prone to inductance from magnetic fields in a tube amp(coming from other components?

Erwin